[00:00:00] Speaker A: You.
Welcome to Fates Wide wheel. I am your host, Sam, and I have the pleasure, honor, privilege of being joined today by Drew Lindo and Dean Georgias. Dean Georgia, of course, the writer of episode two eight, nomad. And Drew Lindo wrote Secret History as well as being executive producer on the show. Thank you both for joining me. I'm so glad you're here. Dean, how are you?
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Good. Good. Seems like been a long journey to get to talking about.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Absolutely. I can only imagine that's definitely been a bit of a theme running through a lot of the interviews for these first eight episodes, people saying, I hope I remember because it was back in February or whatnot. So I can imagine it feels longer than usual. Drew, how are you?
[00:00:45] Speaker C: I'm good. I'm excited to talk about 208 as well because good grief that we end the midseason with a bang. You don't get to go shoot an episode in Egypt every day, do you?
[00:00:56] Speaker A: No, definitely not. Although I wish you guys did. That'd be cool.
[00:01:00] Speaker C: I wish we did, too, because none of us actually went. But.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Actually, you know what? That's a great question to start off with, though. Yeah, go ahead, Dean.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: I was going to say the episode filmed, it was in pre production when the writer strike was called, and so I canceled my ticket because I would have gone because we shot three and a half days over in Egypt with a local egyptian crew. It's something Martin Garrow has done before countries all over the.
It was, I think it was really, even with a crew, I think it was really sort of guerrilla style filmmaking and just in terms of how much they were trying to accomplish in how little time.
But it was exciting. We knew from the start Martin had circled 208 and said we were going to take a break as a show, strike or no strike. After 208, production was going to go on hiatus. So he said, well, that's when you do your international episode, when production goes on hiatus.
I wish I had gone, but super proud of what they were able to accomplish.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it looks amazing.
One of the things that I was know, as Drew was mentioning, not getting to go, and obviously you didn't get to go either, but who all was actually there? I mean, from outward appearances viewing the episode, it looks like obviously Ray was there. I'm assuming Caitlin was also there. Did Eliza go as well?
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Eliza went. She must have gone. This is what happens when it's been months. I think it was just the or principal cast in that episode. So it was Ray, it was Caitlin, it was Eliza, and it was Azita, who's playing Leila Adele, and it was Chris Grismr, our director, who's directing the episode, one of our assistant directors, and I think our costume designer. And that was probably about it. I mean, it was only a few handful of people, and then local crew was.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: I mean, like I said, the episode looks amazing. And, I mean, huge tip of the hat to Chris Grismr, too, because I just think that he directed the hell out of it. I mean, it just looks so good, so cinematic.
Some of the more intimate moments between Ben and Hannah are just beautiful and filmed with this kind of, like, this tenderness and this artistic flair that I really appreciated.
So writing the episode, and then at what point did you know that the episode was actually going to be filmed partly in Egypt?
[00:03:56] Speaker B: So I'm trying to remember.
And Drew helped me out on this. We built out the season, and so we knew 208 was going to be an episode where Ray and Hannah were going to connect emotionally and physically. Like, there'd be at least a kiss. We knew that it was the episode that we were going to reveal. There may actually be a way to bring Ben home.
I don't remember when the room came up with the idea that Tom should propose in the same. Or we should think there's a proposal in the same. So we knew the pieces, and I knew early on I was going to write it. I think, like, just the way we broke out, who was free when?
And then what happened was we got a list of great places you could film internationally successfully. And my mind first went to some of these european capitals. That one are kind of hard to make. Look 19, 62. They don't look all that different than american cities. I mean, don't get me wrong, they look different, but they don't look all that different. And Martin's like, no, if we're going to go abroad, we're walking at the bottom of the sinks. I want, like, the pyramid. He's like, if you're going abroad, you have to say, people have to be like, wait, did they really do that? Did they really go there? And so Egypt was on the list. And then when we thought about the themes and the sort of the romanticism, and there's sort of a bit of a Casablanca feel to it, and all of a sudden, Cairo, 1962, just felt like the perfect place to tell the story. You know what I mean? If you're ever going to sort of get swept away into the fantasy of what might be, what might have been, potentially think you're stranded here forever.
It just had that feel of a place where when you're there, you're in a different world, if that makes sense.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Absolutely. No, it definitely does. And I think you mentioned Casablanca. And as I was watching the episode, not really the first time, but the second time when I was watching the episode, there were a couple of things that I couldn't help but just make connections to. And I think Casablanca being one, the spy who loved know being another. But there's also a very grounded element to the episode that takes it out of kind of that James Bond world. I mean, there's even a couple of lines within the script that hint at that. And there's this television show that I don't know if either one of you are familiar with that.
All of a sudden, it hit me, the parallels not only with this episode, but with quantum leap in general, in spite of being very different, is this old british show called the Sandbaggers, which is a brilliant, brilliant spy show. It's one of my favorite shows of all time. And the thing that's so amazing about it is that much like this iteration of Quantum Leap, there's two sides of the story. There's the field team that's on the mission, and then there's what's happening back at home at the Ministry of defense and such. And most of the episode actually take place at home. So you see kind of the backroom dealings, the politics, all that sort of stuff, and you don't actually see a lot of what's happening in the field, but when you do, it's the big moments.
But anyway, I also thought of, like, John Lacare and Alan first and slow horses series and that sort of. So I'm curious, Dean, like, did you have any influences or did you just kind of sit down and I'm going to, I'm going to write a spy story for quantum leap and have fun with mean.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: I, I've come originally from writing features that were sort of tortured romantic dramas like Tristan and we first. And I know we've talked about this in the past, but the whole notion of Hannah as a character was first brought up. I was very excited because it's one of my favorite kinds of things to stories to tell. I like telling interesting, thoughtful, hopefully provocative love stories.
And I think English patient, probably a film, films where you're trying to underwrite the dialogue, if possible. What I mean by that is it doesn't go on and on and on with lines. And it's not big sweeping stuff, but the ideas are big, right. They're talking about big feelings and big concepts like perhaps being stranded together.
Who doesn't like writing or watching that?
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, one of the things you mentioned, Hannah and Drew, I'll throw this to you. The last time, of course, that we saw Hannah was in secret history in 206. And Ben and Hannah share that kiss at the end.
When you were writing secret history, did you already have a bit of an idea of what was coming in Nomad for their relationship? And was there anything that you did to kind of position things for that? Or was it more just kind of in the discussions that you had already had that you had a general feel, if not necessarily a specific notion of what was going to occur between them?
[00:09:19] Speaker C: I feel like maybe there was more Runway set up for 203 into 206 than from 206 into 208. I think Dean might have gone back, if I recall, and added in, you should check out Princeton, because we knew we were doing Princeton in six. And so that was a dean contribution of three was like that. She was headed in that direction. I think for eight, when we talked about it, it was more that six is like, it's the introduction to them being able to maybe pursue this relationship in some way, shape, or form. And eight would be an actual vehicle where they could try to know what can we be, while also staying on the purpose and the destiny that Ben has. So it was more like, I think it was all Dean is. I've talked about this before, but he and Martin really were the genesis of this story for the season, of this Ben Hannah story and how it was going to intersect in the leaps. And so it was Dean's turn to just do exactly what he wanted to do in the most beautiful, exotic possible location, but also to figure out what is the balance. Because the difference from six to eight is that in six, Hannah is the person of the week. Right. Hannah's the person to help. And this, what I thought Dean did such a beautiful job of on the page and how the episode turned out is we didn't sacrifice a leap for Hannah. It was finding a way to sort of bring Hannah and Layla and Addison all into one story. But Ben is still very active and driving that story, but finding a way that it feels germane to this episode and this idea that it was a two person leap and that maybe that's why they got brought back together was all Dean's construction and idea. So, no, I think it was more just like every episode, you set up some pieces and then the next episode you can just go deeper and explore in a more profound way, because you've got history already in the can.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that. That makes a lot of sense, and especially with the way that this episode is set up and there is so much going on, and yet I feel like it never strays kind of from the momentum that gets set up. At the very beginning, we see Ben outside the pyramids. I think right away the hooks are in, and we just get drawn along for the whole episode. And, Drew, I'm glad you mentioned Addison, because obviously, at the end of a kind of magic, we know that Addison is going to be the observer. Know Ben says, will you be my hologram again? And yet, where we start this episode off is in a moment that is very Addison, Tom centric, at least from the current day perspective, without obviously spoiling anything. Not that you ever would, but can you talk, Dean, a little bit about where the relationship between Tom and Addison is right now? And especially with.
It seems like we're starting to get a little bit more of a hint of some residual, I'll say, because I don't necessarily know that they're at the forefront, but certainly residual romantic feelings that Addison still has for Ben as think.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: You know, one of the things we had not done yet this season was we hadn't seen Addison and Tom really as a domestic couple.
We've only seen them at HQ. And so one of the fun things to do was to finally get to see them together. This is. What are they like at home? What are they, like, cooking shachuka or something like that. Right.
It was fun to do that because really, what we were trying to do and what I was trying to do was present these as viable alternative paths that their romantic lives may, like, really actually see. Like, okay, well, whatever feelings you have about Addison and Tom vis a vis, because of the Ben history, here's what they're like as a couple and seeing them at home. I like them. Hey, this is fun.
And likewise, what would a Hannah Ben romance actually look know? There's a lot of parallels in the episode, and that's probably one of the more significant ones. And the other one really just being this construct that kind of. We just fell into know Ben's a.
And that's a lot like being a spy who wants to defect.
These are places, people who don't really have established homes anymore.
So by starting with a very domestic scene that we've never seen anything like, honestly, I think probably since the pilot, Drew, unless I'm wrong, we saw it with magic and Beth. Right. We saw one. Really nice.
We don't see a lot of domestic blitz on this show. And so there's not much more of a contrast you can draw than a nice kitchen cooking breakfast and being meanwhile, in the desert of Egypt while you're trying to help someone defect, like a potential romance.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so interesting, too, the moment between the two of them. They're cooking the ingredients, and I think that there's some wonderful subtext there with that dialogue and the timing aspect of it in particular and how important that is for relationships and how that plays a huge part not only in this episode but in the whole series.
There is a moment when, after Addison has found the engagement ring, which actually, before I ask this next question, let me just put this to you first.
Was it a hard decision to decide that there would be an engagement ring, that the character of Tom has decided that maybe this is where the relationship is, where it's headed?
Or was that just. Did it make sense? Always make, you know, I think as.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: A room, you sort of always debate and pressure test story points and also pacing. Know, did something Drew and I, in particular, talk a lot about, like, does this feel rushed? Does this feel earned? Why is this character doing this at this given moment? And it would be one thing if what I felt was too far would be a surprise. Out of nowhere, the audience is not prepared for it. Proposal for him to do the proposing.
And I think the consensus was we all felt if that was the first, the audience was introduced to the subject of marriage for these two, that it would be just shocking to the point of maybe too abrupt. But because Addison finds a ring and because, know, he could have been thinking about it for a week. He could have been thinking about it for a year. I mean, not a year, obviously, but for all she knows, it could be a ring from the past. It allowed us, as storytellers options, depending on how we felt about it when we filmed it, when we saw it.
But it also just felt right. It just felt of the choices. It felt, you know, both Tom and Hannah serve very important functions in the lives of Ben and Addison. And in a lot of ways, I would say parallel functions. And it's something we can come back to when we're back together talking about the season finale that Drew has just written. That's so mean. Look, this is a big, sweeping, romantic episode. This is an episode of proposals and perhaps never go home moments. So I think in that way, it was consistent within the language of the episode, if that makes sense.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. No, it definitely. I'm curious what your thoughts are on the potential proposal and the idea of the relationship between Addison and Tom, advancing to that point.
[00:17:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to. I really want to answer your question without getting.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: But I'll.
[00:17:56] Speaker C: I'll say that these people had lives before the events of 202, right? These people had an experience and perhaps a future, and then 202 just threw everything up in the air and just a complete shock for the system, for both of them. So it felt like we needed to acknowledge in some way that these two people are trying, or were trying and might still try to build a life together before everything got stuck in this strange purgatory. Right. That they're both in now because Ben is back, but he's not really back.
And it's also just a way, like Dean said, just looking at these two parallel destinies available to these two characters, because something I think that is a little unfair is this idea that what is Addison really supposed to do? Is she supposed to pull Adana and just mean, we don't know what happened to Donna, but these people aren't watching tv. They're living these stories, and their whole lives are going by and what is fair to them. And if know, based on history, no one's been able to come home before. So if what is. What is she expected to do? Is she expected to pine as a hologram forever? Or is she allowed to be happy? And I think those know, complex but real questions you can ask, even on a network television show, you should be able to ask those questions about what these people really deserve, because they're going through an unimaginable amount of shock and trauma. And so. And I just think that Dean's episode really balances all those complex and contradicting. Like, there is always going to be affection and love there, but also there is an acknowledgement that these people both deserve happiness.
Ben even says, I like Tom, which is true after sex, respect. So it's like, what do these people deserve? And these are good people, but good people still struggle with what they're allowed to have and how it might hurt somebody.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: You know, one of the things that I think is fascinating is that this is definitely, in my opinion, a case of a certain point of view, because one of the things that I think that sometimes you'll hear a small number of people maybe criticize the relationship or the decision that Addison has made to move on. But I think if you really shift the point of view and take it from a different perspective, you start to realize that Addison and Tom had a friendship and relationship prior to her ever meeting Ben. So who's to say that the real love story isn't these two people that knew each other once upon a time. Things know. Tom got know suffers the loss of his wife. That's awful. But Addison moves on because that's what people do, right? And now Addison finds know in love with Ben, and then everything happens. But now, all of a sudden, Tom and Addison are back together. You tell that story in that way, and all of a sudden, the story starts to look like know. Oh, Tom and Addison love. So I think that that's the thing that I really enjoy, is the fact that there is history between these two, that it's not just someone that Addison met in the intervening three years while Ben was gone, which I think was a really smart choice.
Here's a question I have because I'll admit I was a little surprised at first. And not because the crew hasn't been supportive prior to this mean they have been. But Ian's reaction to Addison telling them about finding the ring.
I was a little surprised at how enthusiastic they were about it. So, Dean, you wrote it, so I'll get to you in a second. Drew, I'm just curious what you thought about.
[00:21:26] Speaker C: You know, again, we did a time jump, so the characters all had history together. And with Tom that we haven't seen, but we're seeing whether it's magic's alcoholism or, you know, or Addison's trauma and nearly throwing herself in an accelerator. They've all gone through a hell of a lot. And so I think they are all extending a lot of grace towards one another because of how much damage the events of those three years have caused one another. And so I think they all are just aware that they are all doing the best they can and have gone to hell and back. And so it's harder to cry foul that someone might have a real chance at life or happiness when you've seen them at the brink of the abyss.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: No, that's an excellent point. And when I was lucky enough to have Caitlin on a couple of weeks ago, she made a wonderful, wonderful point about. From her point of view, Ian was probably, like, the last one to stop calling.
The rest of the team had moved on, but they were still kind of checking in with her.
In that context, it makes a heck of a lot of sense. Dean, I'm curious about your perspective.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Well, I think part of it is Ian, as a know, is this beacon of.
I think, you know, from their perspective. Addison has said, you won't believe this. I found an engagement ring. And that's an exciting piece of news. She's not saying you won't believe this. We secretly got married last year, and I have that I didn't tell you about. You know what I mean? She's saying that there's a ring.
And, in fact, that scene in the script went on longer. It was one of those scenes we had to cut for time where Ian sort of teases Addison for Addison's.
She's just not even sure how to process it, because I think in an early draft, Jen was in the scene, too, and Jen sort of said, like, did you find it? Because you were snooping? And, no, I found it by accident. And Jen's like, oh, my God. It's so much, you know, kind of what Drew was saying.
It's so easy to look at everything and go like, this is heavy, or, this is sad. It's like, Addison's happy. You know, she's been happy. She was happy with Ben. She was destroyed. She found happiness, a new kind of happiness with Tom, and was building that.
And now Ben is back in her life. But we know how to get Ben home when she finds that.
And, you know, another thing is, she lives every leap, I believe right now with the, like, okay, well, we could lose him for another three years.
There's no guarantees. There's a sort of Damocles hanging over everybody's head this season because they know we've lost Ben once, and we're on year 35 or something like that with Sam. We don't have a great track record here.
So I think it was just about having her friends express excitement, because they all want her to be.
And I think we all feel like if Tom was a bad choice or a bad guy, I think the reaction would be, is a. This is a good direction Addison wants to go.
They all are behind that. I think Ben is behind that. Right. I mean, that's sort of what, as he kind of expresses in the episode, they both, I think, really get it, that this may be a permanent, you know, one of the things I was so excited to write in this episode was to explore this notion of, well, what is life for a time traveler? Like, what's their life, the thing that's theirs? You know what I mean? Like, we all have our homes and our friends, and one of the things I'll do is I'll send Drew pages as I'm working on them, and he'll be like, this is great. This is terrible. Mostly just, he's a cheerleader and fountain of good ideas, but Ben has none of that. Yeah, he has nothing except a hologram and a bunch of missions with strangers that he comes to care not where he doesn't have a bed that stays the same, he doesn't have that. What happens if we said to Ben right now, that's your life? Your living experience in this universe is going to be, to you, a perception of 60 years doing leaps in a way that's solitary confinement in terms of having your own personal life. And so I was so excited about was the universe starting to give Ben someone to connect to so that he wasn't completely alone. And Addison seeing that and realizing how important that it is that she has that same connection in her life. In this case, it's Tom, right? I mean, I think the easiest argument you can make is in 208, the universe is like, okay, we've decided, Tom for you, Hannah for you, at least for this episode, right? That's the way the universe presents it.
And I think it's really all easy for all of us to judge someone else, say, oh, well, in that situation, knowing everything I know, I would have made a different choice.
Happiness is not that easy to find, and love and connection is not that easy to find.
[00:27:35] Speaker C: I think is really cool that Dean has been exploring the season.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: That we.
[00:27:41] Speaker C: Will probably talk more about as this season goes on. But this idea of the complex exponential value and scope of love. Right? Like, how much can you love one person? How much can you love not just one person? It's an infinite resource. It's a complex state of energy that is going on. And so you're seeing all these people who are really good, decent people coming to wrestle with the limits of who they can or cannot love or possess or release and let go and still love in their own way. But it's a very complex.
I wouldn't even call it a quadrant. It's a complex situation for everybody. And nobody is, like, scheming or trying to destroy anybody else.
They're all adults, and they're all in a very impossible situation. But it's not as simple as just like, well, I love this person and I don't give a shit about you.
Everybody really does care about one another and has very loaded attachments, so it's right for great drama and also, fun fact, I do believe at 1.206 was going to end with Addison witnessing the kiss. We took it out. We did. Because it really made the arrival of that idea for Addison so much stronger. In Nomad, this idea of not just about missions, it's not just about the plot of the week. It's that there's something that he deserves that he gets to have. Now that I didn't realize was even.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: You know, two things. One, I think that there are some interesting parallels between Hannah and Tom, especially in the course of this episode. And it's information that we've learned about Tom prior. But I think it comes to the forefront here with his decision to potentially, you know, her.
I don't want to say overtures, but certainly her discussions have been about that this might be all we have, and let's share this moment. And Tom, of course, having lost his spouse and being in when that happens and when you grieve, when you lose something like that or when you have to kind of suffer this five year absence from having the last time you saw someone or whatnot, I think that it creates a situation where you do find yourself much more able to, I think, fall in love, quite frankly, to know when something feels right because you know what it's like to be without it. And so when it's there in front of you, I think you're much more apt to just go for it.
The other thing that's interesting to me about the interactions between Hannah and Addison in this episode is how aware Addison is of Hannah at all times and vice versa. Hannah, which is interesting, considering Hannah can't actually even see her. But there's this wonderful awareness. Dean, can you talk a little bit about that and just kind of what that means for these characters, especially going forward?
[00:30:43] Speaker B: Well, I should start by saying I don't think I had appreciated the potential for humor in it.
It was actually Drew who said, you should have fun here, which ended up turning into that little back and forth, the act out. Wait, did you call her beautiful? Did you call. That all came because Drew said, there's humor to be had here, but genuine feelings recognize genuine feelings. Right. And I think, just as a quick aside, it's a particularly modern western notion that love is like this limited amount of thing that walls must be up. Like, you must pair with one person and only love them.
There's nothing I can think of in the universe besides love that seems to not. It doesn't dwindle like you could use. I could love 50 people. You don't love your 51st kid any less. Like love, there's nothing that suggests love is finite.
And I think that's Hannah's point of view in a way. Just like she was able to immediately grasp Ben as a time traveler because she was like, I see beyond these arbitrary limits. That's her relationship with love. She's like, we should be so happy but I think for Addison, it's just the awareness. It's just seeing, wow. Like, Ben's getting to sit with someone and she knows who he is. Ben is having a genuine conversation. And I think Addison respects Hannah. I think she likes Hannah. You know what I mean? Hannah's a force. Hannah went to, like, now, like, a top scientist. Here she is in Cairo. She's fearless.
She knows what Ben does. And when Ben says, I'm here on a dangerous mission, Hannah's mind is like, well, clearly I should be mean. If you think about it, they're incredibly similar, Hannah. They really are.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: So I do think it's a case of in real life, when you love someone and when you can't be with them for whatever the reason, like, you fell out of love, but you still have that bond as long as it wasn't a destructive tear, it's easy to want for them to be happy, or it's what someone who really loves you wants. And Addison really loves Ben, and Ben really loves Addison. And I think the whole idea was, in episode one, we're going to drop a bomb. In episode two, the bomb is going to hit all of our characters in the present. And it's going to take six episodes for Ben and Addison to get to a place where potentially we believe, and they believe they can be happy for each other because they can accept this is what's know. I always like to remind people Ben's the one who got in the like. Ben did the he. I remind them that to say he never forgets that. Do you know what I mean? As much as angry, he's mad that Addison didn't like. Those are all the things you say when you're first mad. We all say ridiculous stuff when we're mad. And then we think about it. And then you say, well, now that I think about it, I did leap without telling her. I didn't give her a chance to help herself.
I love her. Tom seems like a good guy.
Yeah. This is like, I get, you know, I think that was the goal. But I have to say, I don't think any of us were know.
You don't know. You're like, can we pull this off? And then it's really on your actors.
It's a big thing to come to your cast. I mean, we knew they're incredible, but it's a big thing to go from, okay, you spent a whole year in this lane. So now, over the course of eight episodes, we want you to tell this story in glances, in lines of dialogue, in separation and then in coming mean, I just mean, I don't know what to. They.
They completely pull it off. And the fact that the audience has embraced Hannah as much as they have, I think, is very interesting simply because arguably, this is their third date or second.
Everybody wants to get on Addison that she's been in a relationship after she was alone for years. It's like, okay, well, Ben found out in episode two, and he was kind of flirting with somebody in episode.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: You know, I think that it is interesting, but it makes a lot of sense to me because I just think that the nature of the relationship and everything that you said earlier about Ben not having anyone or having know the nature of his existence as a time traveler once you kind of gave him some sort of touchstone, it was impossible, I think, for people to not want him to continue to have that, because it's the same thing with Sam. Right. It's the reason why I think so many people were upset that Sam never went home is because it's like, well, where does that leave know? And I wept like a child when I read that title card or in card for the first mean, I was a child, but that's besides the know. I came to accept it. I came to appreciate it, and now I support the decision wholeheartedly. I think it was an amazing, courageous choice, honestly. But that said, by giving that. That thing to go back to and having it be this incredibly realized character, and I think Eliza is phenomenal in the role, so it's easy to see why. And especially after Nomad, I think that the nature of their relationship and where we leave it, it's even more wanting for them to come back together than it was at the end of secret history. At secret history, it's like if he had gotten to share that kiss and share that moment, it would have been a feel good moment. And sure, you would have looked back on him like, wow, I wish they would have gotten back together, but I think you would have kind of been like, okay, these things happen. But after Nomad, it's like, okay, that's got to happen as soon as possible. When are they going to get back together? Basically, I'm just trying to figure out when is Hannah going to come back?
[00:37:36] Speaker B: Well, Drew, what should we say? I think what we should say always. I think when we write these episodes, we watch them as an audience, at least I think we try to. Right. And so the fact that you're dying to see Hannah again is good. That's what we like. And so I think our goal is always to give you what you want. But then you think about something, in a way, you're like, oh, I didn't even think about that. So I think you'll see her again.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: Well, it's funny you say that.
[00:38:20] Speaker C: Ben doesn't know she's a regular. We know she's a regular.
[00:38:23] Speaker A: The irony, I think it's safe to.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Say everything in 208, there's a heightened sense of romantic possibility to it. Right. So I do think Ben is leaving 208, thinking, I'm going to be a time traveler. I'm going to embrace it. It's going to be good. And I have this new person in my life named Hannah, and I'm excited for the first time, arguably at least since 202, and potentially the first time honestly happy, since he's been a time traveler, and he's embraced the idea. So I do think this is a little. The whole episode is like a little safe cradle space where it's like those films, like, before Sunset and before sunrise.
I think we all have those magic moments where the penumbra of the situation creates a little cocoon of like, oh, this world could be this way.
I think I understand we all should be wanting to see them together again.
[00:39:32] Speaker C: Also, I think what's very cool about six and eight as know satellite stories for the Ben and Hannah relationship is the end of six is Hannah is confident she's going to see Ben again. Right. And the end of eight is Ben is a believer. That's something very cool that he is starting to believe in this purpose or this gift and this time, and seeing it through her eyes, that this might actually be a viable thing that he can experience, even though he's being thrust all throughout the timeline. So it's very cool to see Ben again. This is part of that journey, right, of, like, we're seeing him, his spirit being reignited after this huge low point, and it's very exciting to see where that will take him next.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah, there's definitely a level of confidence when he walks away from her at the end of the episode, which is very different from the situation we see, like, at the end of three, for instance, when he walks away from her, kind of like, oh, I'm not going to see you later. But sure, I'll say it.
One of the things about the episode that I think was really fascinating, and it kind of goes back to what you were saying about kind of giving people what they want, but then maybe shifting things or shifting expectations is that the shifting sands of this episode. I'm so sorry.
When we learn that Layla possibly was murdered.
We've not really talked a lot about this, but Ben's mission is there to help get this spy out and get her safe. And it turns out that at one point in the episode, everyone thinks she's dead. And I'm curious, this isn't the first time that something like this has happened in an episode of Quantum Leap, but certainly it plays very strongly here, because I think that emotionally, the investment in the characters, obviously, there's this idea of, like, well, if Ben gets stuck here, maybe it won't be so, know, what would his life look like? And he and Hannah are able to discuss that a little bit. But when making the choice to kind of take that left turn as opposed to let things go smoothly, what goes into making a decision like that? Is it just the storytelling possibilities? Is it kind of that idea of, like, I can make the audience think one thing and then show them something else?
What's your intent?
[00:41:55] Speaker B: I think actually, although the intent wasn't to be twisty at all, I mean, I'm sure it's little Ziggy's eggs, but the intent really was, let's let Ben and our core characters sit for as long as we can. And I wish we were full 60 minutes shows, because we would have spent five more minutes, I think, there, or I would have loved to have spent longer with this feeling, oh, maybe this is how it ends for is. Maybe this is how it ended for Sam.
I think it was really important for Ben to experience that. I think it was really important for all of our characters to experience.
Don't. I'm not a viewer, so I don't know how well it comes across, but I think for know, it's a different perspective for Hannah, because in a way, it's like, well, I met this time traveling Guardian angel, and have I just completely fucked up his whole guardian angel?
Like, if I messed it up. But I think some part of her knows. No matter what Ben's saying, I think she's so confident that the universe, as much as she would love for it to be, he's going to be with her every day from now on. I think some part of her knows, and that's what we were trying to get at with the phone ringing and her knowing. The minute she hears that ring, she's like, the spell is broken. We're going back to reality. And I think in a lot of ways, that's just meant to be just like a little Easter egg in a way of this sense of just when you think something might be the way you want it to be something.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: I mean, I genuinely thought that that was probably where you were going with it. But it's so nice to hear that because it clearly wasn't done just for the sake of doing it. I'm sorry, Drew, what you were going to say?
[00:44:05] Speaker C: Well, I think also that it's interesting how the universe can quantum leap. Whatever force is out there, is such a character in both series. Right.
And what's great about it, unless you believe it's a bartender, what's great about it is that it's sort of unknowable, but we want to prescribe a positive, altruistic intention to the design, but also, terrible things still happen. Right. And so that's what's so interesting about this season, is that just when, if the finale of season one is like, trust this whole. Trust this whole system, Ben. See, it's going to work out. You're going to stop bleeper X and everything's going to work out.
But it didn't. There's a huge sense of failure for everyone this season. Ben didn't come home. No one was able to find him. Everyone had to give up, and the whole thing got shut down. And so what's very interesting on a spiritual level about season two of quantum leap is that people are oscillating wildly between finding a level of faith that it's all going to be okay and absolutely cratering with this idea that all is lost and that there is no meaning whatsoever, because there's been some really. I mean, this is a huge loss that they've all experienced, and it wasn't looking out for everybody. Exactly. So it was very cool to see Dean explore that within the episode. Right. Which is like. Because we're all looking for meaning in our lives, what am I here to do and what am I supposed to do?
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Right?
[00:45:27] Speaker C: And so for Ben, for a moment, it's like, have I just failed? And once again, I've lost, or is this a gift and I'm supposed to stay here and be happy? And that's a really amazing moral dilemma and question to be posing to the hero of your show, even if it's just for one chapter of the episode. But it was great to see them sort of reckon with that.
Are we supposed to get this? Is this a reward? It's disguised as a defeat, but the show must go.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: You know, speaking of the show must go on, actually, this is a perfect segue because one of the things that I'm very curious about is whether or not we're going to explore at any point in time or get to see any of what's happening to Hannah in the times, in her off time, if you will, because it's been years in between when she's seen Ben. And I think that there will definitely be a growing curiosity of what she'd been up.
So I'm very curious.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: I think, Drew, I'm happy that you're.
[00:46:34] Speaker C: Be. That's a great question to be asking.
I think what's been very cool about the season is there's a lot of questions people are asking that are very insightful.
[00:46:47] Speaker A: I'm glad it's.
There's the. The interesting thing is to go back to what you were just saying, Drew, also about sort of the metaphysical side of things, is that in season one, there was this lovely running subtext and undercurrent of the implications of technology on these human beings and on our lives.
And it played out really well through the course of the season, and it continues obviously in a strain here with the. With the microchip and everything that's going on there. However, what has been brought more to the forefront, and I've said this multiple times, of course, is the fact that we've got even more of a focus on the people and the relationships and what's bringing them together or what's keeping them apart.
Dean, can you talk a little bit about, especially being executive producer, co show runner, writer, in your capacity, a little bit about the decision to focus more on these themes and if that is an intentional thing, maybe moving a little bit away from the focus that we had in season one?
[00:47:57] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I mean, it was the intention of the entire intention.
It's the intention behind every choice. And I think, as Martin likes to say, we think of each season of Quantum leap as its own book in a series of books.
And in this season, I think we really wanted to explore the emotional roller coaster that it is being a part of this.
It's. Whether it's Ben or Addison or the person who loves Addison, or, like, the idea was, let's look under the hood in a way. Like, we're going to tell our leap stories, and they're always the most important thing. We're spending the time talking about the serialized story for the most part, which is great, because that's what changes between the seasons, is the serialized story you tell.
But to me, I can relate to people on an emotional level.
I can follow stories, and I can engage on them on an intellectual level. Like, I liked the intellectual puzzle of season one, but I'm personally, much more interested in the emotional journeys people take.
And I think when people hear, oh, quantum leap, the show quantum leap, they don't necessarily think that's a show where we're going to get to explore the emotional side of the job. The way, say on Grey's anatomy, you expect to explore the emotional side of the job. And I love that we made the decision as a group to tell the emotional side of the job. And I should say we are all incredibly grateful to NBC and universal television because, frankly, they could have said no, right. They could have said, we need another mystery.
We want more leaper x.
But they didn't. They said, let's get to know these people more and let's put them through the rear.
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think you're absolutely right, because to me, that kind of emotional engagement, it's more difficult, which automatically, in my opinion, makes it more interesting, just as human beings, not even necessarily from, like, I'm going to write this story, but even just as the way people relate to one another, it's easy to have that intellectual conversation. But when you start talking about your hopes and your fears, et cetera, et cetera, that can be difficult. And I think that automatically does it makes it more interesting. But to not give short shrift to the leap side briefly, because I don't want to keep you too long. But I do love the way that everything is set up, and I love the spy craft that we get throughout the episode.
Thinking about it in terms of that, was there any research that you did? Is this something you just kind of came in kind of prepared to write?
[00:51:15] Speaker B: I've worked on a lot of movies like this from when I first started writing back the man sharing candidate, which I think I started writing the script of in, like, 1998 or something like that.
And I've worked on shows like this. I didn't do a ton of research, but what I did do was embrace this idea of I want Ziggy to have as little information.
I love, love, don't get me wrong, but I also love Ben having to figure things out on his own, or even Ben and Addison having to keep things together. And I like, it was very intentional that Ben figures basically everything of the leap story out more or less on his own. Like, he gets the download from Addison a little bit about who he is. Addison is the one who pieces together that Addison makes the a chance. It was a very conscious decision to say, let's see if we can tell the story with as little dialogue as possible about the story.
And that also gives you more time for it gives you more time for the character stuff, but also even for the set piece stuff. And I always think it makes people seem smarter, frankly.
[00:52:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that one of the things that's so smart about the decision to kind of limit Ziggy's involvement and influence on the story is I feel like it sets up really well the potential to do that again in the future. And we saw it a little bit in a kind of magic because there wasn't necessarily the records or whatnot, but obviously they were still leaning on Ziggy, they were still leaning on information. And with this episode, with them having to figure it out a little bit more on their own. And especially the way that Addison. I love the way that she was able to really take charge back at the project and really start asking the right questions. Like you said, it makes the characters look smarter. It makes them look better.
I love the coaching that she was giving Ben. The wonderful thing is it felt like at times that he was certainly not resistant to it, as we saw, like in lonely Hearts Club or anything. But it also didn't necessarily seem like he needed it as much that he was taking it in, but he was still going to make up his own mind about things.
Is there any difficulty in making sure that, especially when you have two strong characters, that they're not too independent from one another? How do you keep them so engaged with one another when they have to kind of make up their own minds about.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: I think, you know, you judge it kind of on the episode and the situation that they're going through. And because Addison. Addison's got a big. I don't want to call it secret, but Addison's got something on her mind besides this leap.
[00:54:18] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:54:19] Speaker B: This ring.
And Ben has something on his mind besides this leap, which is, how should he allow himself to feel about know? Because dare he even start to care for someone again?
I'll circle back to, like, what's the price of being a leaper? What's the like? Do you get to love know? Do you have to be someone who's. I get to love you, for one, know? Ben's heart's on the line, I think, starting again. So when your two leads, to answer your question, I think when they've got something else going on, it allows us, we can still have the interplay between them, and they work really well as a team and she helps them.
But I don't think you ever get the feeling that for either of them, the only thing they're thinking about is the know. Like back in, early in season one, of course, all Addison was thinking about was the leap because the leap was the only way Ben gets right. And same for Ben. But now, until the end of the episode, the notion of Ben coming home is kind of off the mean. We've talking about it, but we haven't been talking about it a lot. Not a lot of progress has been made.
[00:55:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:55:51] Speaker B: And so I think that's what you're sensing as a viewer. You know what I mean?
It's still their day job and it's still the most important thing.
But these are characters who are starting to have lives that are bleeding into the leaps, and the audience knows what those lives are. And that's what we didn't get to do in season one, that we got to do in season two.
We know what Addison's thinking. We know what the big.
That was the risk for us worth taking because certainly splitting the know, unclipping the shipper, or however we want to say it, tearing Ben and Addison apart for season two, for at least some of season two, I want to say all because we haven't finished, really. We didn't do it lightly. We know it's a scary, risky thing to do, especially in season two. A lot of times people wait longer.
[00:56:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:56:55] Speaker B: But it just gives the audience so much more to watch.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: Well, I think one of the things I was saying right before we started and Drew wisely was like, we should hit record, is that I think that season two, while certainly building on the relationships and these characters that were built in the first season, has felt very much like its own separate entity, its own separate story. And like you had mentioned, Martin referring to it as a book, right within a series almost. And it makes a lot of sense because it stands well enough on its own that you can appreciate it, having never seen season one. But I do think that there's a lot more richness to it if you, of course, coming from seeing season, I'm, as a viewer, I'm very pleased. And I just think that season two know, to borrow Drew's words before we started recording, has avoided any kind of sophomore slump, and if anything, has just become a richer and deeper story that has engaged me on a higher level as well as seeing these incredibly textured performances born out of this great writing.
[00:58:07] Speaker B: Well, that's very kind of you. I know.
I think from the writers to the cast to the crew, we're very proud of this season. And I think I'm very excited for everyone to see the rest of it in 2024.
[00:58:28] Speaker A: Speaking of which, any hint as to when we might be able to see that?
[00:58:34] Speaker B: No, I legitimately don't know because the strikes, which thankfully now are settled, has created such a log jam that was a number of months that shows didn't get to air, and NBC has a big log jam of shows.
And so I think they're just parsing out. Okay, when can we give this show this many episodes?
I expect it'll probably be like late January through end of February, I think. But I don't know.
[00:59:11] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:59:12] Speaker B: My hope is that we get to do them and then I have to run. But my hope is we get to do them so that you get to see them more or less without a break or maybe one break.
I think this whole season really is meant to be seen without a break. But last five, really, I think if we could just line them up, that'll be wonderful because by the time we're done, you'll be able to watch this podcast again and you'll be like, well, look at that, look at that, look at that, look at that.
[00:59:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I can't wait to connect those dots. And I just think that you all are doing a phenomenal job, and I'm grateful for you being here to talk about the show. Get in. Of course, there's so many more questions, so I hope we get the chance to do it again soon.
[01:00:06] Speaker B: Probably for 209, but for sure. For 213, for sure.
[01:00:12] Speaker A: Excellent. That sounds great. Dean, thank you so very much. I really appreciate it.
[01:00:16] Speaker B: Thanks.
[01:00:17] Speaker A: Absolutely.