February 25, 2024


Quantum Leap | Benjamin Raab & Deric Hughes - "As the World Burns"

Quantum Leap | Benjamin Raab & Deric Hughes - "As the World Burns"
Fate's Wide Wheel: A Quantum Leap Podcast
Quantum Leap | Benjamin Raab & Deric Hughes - "As the World Burns"

Feb 25 2024 | 01:55:59


Show Notes

In this episode, I am joined by Benjamin Raab & Deric Hughes (EP/writers - One Night in Koreatown) to discuss the writing and character development in the episode 'As the World Burns'. Head over to www.fateswidewheel.com! and be sure to visit jjlendl.com/fwwshop to pick up the season 2 posters and much more! Thank you, Patrons! Al’s Place Leap Fan Site, Bourbon and Boardgames, Carolyn, Cosplay Dad, Joanne Bartlett, Dana Bius, Rich Bourque, Kevin, Carol Davis, Deckslower, Dermot Devlin, Barry Donovan, Brian Dreadful, Troy Evers, Larry Ganni, Jason Geis, Sophie Gilbert, Christina Gist, James Gould, Kelly M, Michelle Hoffman, Amy Holtcamp, Laurie Johnson, Bess A Korey, Lady Eternal, Max the Mental Health Warrior from Madison Wisconsin, MercuryBeat, Oddly Specific with Audra, The Quantum Leap Podcast, Christopher Redmon, Adrian Sal, Karyn Saxon, Jerry Seward, Mike Stoufer, Heather Strbiak, Damon Sugameli, Larry Trujillo, Stuart Williams, Jill Wilson, Our Anonymous Patrons Become a patron or donor yourself: Monthly: Fate’s Wide Wheel on Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/fateswidewheel) Feedback? Send us an email: [email protected] #quantumleap #scifi #tv #television Takeaways Finding moments of levity and organic humor is important in storytelling. Chemistry and humor in the HQ scenes contribute to the character-driven nature of the episodes. Crafting synergy between the present day and leap stories enhances the storytelling experience. The last leap between Ben and Hannah is a significant moment in the show. The theme of sacrifice is explored throughout the season. The emotional journey of Gideon Ridge adds depth to the story. Nods to Superman and other comic book references are included in the show. Inspiration can come from being able to pursue one's passion and work with great colleagues and friends. Family and personal relationships can be a major source of inspiration. Starting a podcast can be a fun way to explore different topics and connect with others. Being grateful for the support of fans and engaging with them can bring joy and fulfillment. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Weather Check-In 02:10 Discussion of the Episode 'As the World Burns' 03:38 Writing Jeffrey's Character 06:09 Jeffrey's Emotional Journey 08:38 Scene between Addison and Hannah 11:49 Addison's Character Arc 13:35 The Importance of Caitlin's Performance 16:18 The Scene between Addison and Hannah 19:21 Full Spoilers for 'Against Time' 21:32 The Character Arc of Addison 24:47 The Dynamics between Magic and Jen 28:47 Setting up the Project Side of the Story 34:17 Balancing Humor in the Episode 34:58 Finding Moments of Levity 35:28 Chemistry and Humor in the HQ Scenes 36:35 Character-Driven Episodes 37:34 The Importance of Reactions in the Leap and HQ Stories 38:28 Crafting Synergy Between Present Day and Leap Story 39:28 Writing a Scenario with A and B Stories 40:48 The Last Leap Between Ben and Hannah 43:58 Avoiding the Trope of Killing Off a Character 45:03 Balancing Drama, Tragedy, and Joy 46:26 The Importance of the Last Leap Between Ben and Hannah 48:48 The Real Formula and Science Consultation 50:46 Crafting the Last Leap Between Ben and Hannah 52:39 The Nature of Sacrifice Throughout the Season 54:16 The Emotional Journey of Gideon Ridge 58:11 Building the Character of Gideon Ridge 01:04:19 Nods to Superman and Comic Book References 01:10:29 The Importance of Planning and Planting Seeds 01:11:37 Shaping Season Two and the Unique Circumstances 01:12:17 Learning from Season One and Shifting the Paradigm 01:13:45 Digging Deeper into the Characters 01:15:11 Bringing the Rocket Back Down Safely 01:17:42 The Pressure of the Strike and Ending Season Two 01:18:59 Crafting Emotional Goodbye Scenes 01:20:29 The Impact of Music and Flashbacks 01:25:22 The Emotional Payoffs of Season Two 01:28:19 Crafting the Letter Reading Scene 01:31:59 Bringing Season Two to a Close 01:34:28 Remembering Matt Dale and His Impact 01:46:25 What Inspires You? 01:47:30 Inspiration and Relationships 01:48:52 What Inspires Ben? 01:50:18 Ben's Podcast 01:52:04 Derek's Current Projects 01:54:10 Gratitude and Fan Engagement 01:55:09 Closing Remarks

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello, fellow travelers, and welcome to Fates Wide wheel. I'm your host, Sam, and I am thrilled to be joined once again by the writing duo extraordinary Benjamin Rabb and Derek Hughes. Guys, thank you so much for being here. Derek, how are you? [00:00:16] Speaker B: You know, dry. It's a rainy day. So once again in southern California, which is also a rarity. But other than that, I'm happy to be here. That's my, my canned weather response. [00:00:31] Speaker A: Let's start off with know. I appreciate that there are some podcasts that I listen to that they always do a weather report check in because they're all from different know in the country. So I appreciate the weather check in. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Ben, how are you about Ben's response, then? [00:00:46] Speaker C: Well, I'm not going to talk about the weather. [00:00:47] Speaker B: I mean, there's really no point. [00:00:51] Speaker C: Mentally, I'm okay. Physically, I think I'm all right. I mean, I'm taking all the required medications that my doctors prescribed, so I'm feeling pretty healthy. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Excellent. I mean, any morning you can get up and be above ground and make sure you're doing the right things to take care of yourself. It's not a bad thing. The weather here in Chicago is good. I'll just add it had been pretty cold the past couple of days. Today we got up to about 50, so I was able to go on a nice little walk with the family before dinner. So that was nice. We were dry. I apologize. I'm sure we'll get some of that moisture at some point soon, and it'll probably be snow, so you can be thankful that you're not going to get a couple of feet of snow dumped on you like we did a few weeks back. So at least there's that. [00:01:36] Speaker C: My daughter's there for college and she's having her first experiences of real winter. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. Yeah. I'm sure that that was interesting, especially because in the city it was a little different than it was in the burbs. They got a lot of ice because this weird thing happened where the lake stayed warmer, where generally there's that lake effect snow and the lake gets colder and that sort of stuff. But for whatever, you know, climate change, the lake was warmer this time around. So instead of getting all of the snow that the Chicago land area got, they got a lot of ice in the city. So that had to have been interesting. But anyway, from ice to fire, we are here to talk about as the world burns. I know, right? That was pretty good, wasn't it? And I'm so excited to talk. [00:02:26] Speaker B: Was that in your kindle, like you had that one circled. [00:02:29] Speaker A: No, it is at the top, but it wasn't necessarily perfectly planned. I have to say that this is one of my favorite episodes of the season, and it's one of my favorite episodes that you guys have written. I've loved a number of episodes. Well, I mean, all of the episodes pretty much that you guys have written. And this one just felt so momentous in a lot of ways, obviously, because it started to really drive home a lot of the stuff that was going to be resolved in the finale. And it's such a perfect companion to that finale episode. So I can't wait to talk about it. But seriously, kudos, because I just really loved it. And I think that a lot of viewers are going to feel the same way. And it's that perfect kind of first hour since they're going to be aired back to back to this two hour event that people have been witness to as they'll now be able to watch and listen to this. So the first thing that I wanted to start off with, actually, was to talk about one of the characters in the episode. And that's, of course, the character of Jeffrey. And we see Jeffrey, obviously, very early in the episode. But at the risk of being too linear, we can jump all over the place with this one because I feel like the introduction that we got to the character off the cuff, he's in a very different place now for a lot of reasons. So, Derek, I'll go ahead and start with you. Can you talk about writing Jeffrey in this episode and just what the bigger picture was like in the writer's room and the discussion of the character getting ready to kind of set up some of the big stuff that's coming over the course of not only this episode, but also in the mean, you know. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Start off with the fact that we and all the writers credit to everyone because we were coming off of a seven month. There's a little something that happened last year in Hollywood where it was kind of a tiny little shutdown that really affected lots and lots of people. But we were fortunate enough in that time when we came back that because we kind of used that to our advantage, because we had some time off, that we were able to revisit all the episodes, all the stories. Like the first day back, Martin and Dean gathered all of us together, and we were just like, oh, we really need to start figuring some things out, including, like, how does know factor into this? How is it going to play? How is it going to lead up to where we need him to be, especially when the reveal of who Jeffrey turns out to be. Right. And so that in itself was like the fun, trying to figure all that stuff out as far as writing him. Yeah, it was tricky because again, it was like there was two jeffries that you had to write and emotionally where the character was at one point in their life. And then when we see him again now in our episode, where is he? And all the impact of what Ben set in motion. Right. And what Ben tried to prevent, in trying to help save one life, he inadvertently destroyed another person's life, or in this case, Jeffrey. That's Jeffrey's pOv, right. Of like, this person's solely responsible for destroying my life and my connection, my love with my father. And it puts them on that dark path. And so when we sat down, we were just like, okay, we had to make sure that we keep track of that. And that was a bit of a trick, especially when also, at the same time, you won't know really if it's going to work until who you end up casting, because that's the other part of the equation of who you cast. And we were very fortunate and lucky to get who we got in that way. That's where I think was just for in the writing of it, it was a constant sort of calibration of trying to figure out how this is going to pay off in the way that you needed to pay off. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it certainly does. Ben, kind of the same question. Just the approach to the character as a whole, but also to add another layer to that. I mean, you're writing this character who is obviously struggling with all of this grief, but not just a character struggling with grief, but an eleven year old boy struggling with having lost his father. You talk a little bit about the approach to that as well as the character overall. [00:07:15] Speaker C: Well, I mean, we wanted to make it as real, incredible and believable as we possibly could. The emotions of an eleven year old, they can manifest in a host of different ways. And so part of what we wanted for Jeffrey specifically was, well, Jeffrey, he's not your average eleven year old kid. This kid, there's something extra about him that comes from his mother. He has definitely had a son. And off the cuff, we see the elements of how similar they are, like when they're talking about cooking. And he knows the scientific side of cooking. Right. The science of gastronomy speaks to that. This is a kid who has an intellectual level that is different than other kids. And we kind of felt like, well, but what if his emotional level isn't. What if his emotional level is a little bit more in the pocket of an eleven year old? Just because you're intellectually playing on a different plane than your peers doesn't mean you don't feel and hurt like they do. So the trick was sort of threading that needle, figuring out how to do it in a way that when he lashes out, you don't want the audience to be like, oh, this kid's a pain in the ass. You want the audience to really sympathize with him and kind of feel what he's going through. And I think Wyatt, the actor that played Jeffrey in twelve, Wyatt Parker. Yeah, he brought a great point of view to Jeffrey at that age, know, really served our episode fun. There were some fun moments on set where Pamela gave him some direction, and Derek and I were sitting there in the village and we heard how he was acting and what he was saying, and we're like, we didn't write that. She was trying to get him into the emotional state of a moment in one scene. And she was like, but he says to Benny, he's like, fuck you. We're like, whoa. And his mom's standing right behind us. [00:09:24] Speaker B: And I'm like, all right. [00:09:27] Speaker A: It wasn't. [00:09:30] Speaker B: You know, shout out and props to Pamela, because as our director was able to, again, to sort of like, you get a character so far on the page and then the actor, in this case, Wyatt, will get the character another step on the page. Then Pamela is, the director is saying, okay, now I need to really dig in and bring it here where you were here. I needed to be like, and being able to work with an actor in that capacity. And I think, again, that's where it really fleshes out the character that you envision, that you hope that will leap off the page and you'll be able to see that way on screen. But sometimes you don't get that fortune of having someone be able to do that. And again, we're very lucky in such a way that it just all works out. [00:10:20] Speaker C: And you can see that would be kind of cool for. [00:10:28] Speaker A: I'd be happy with mean. Yeah, white does a wonderful job. And I love what you were just saying. Know, Derek, about just getting that fusion, right, of the writing and the actor and the director. And of course, you can go on and on, right? You can talk about everybody from the cinematographer to the wardrobe to the editors, obviously. But really, when you just think about that specific collaboration between the writing, the acting and the directing, it feels like with this episode in particular that there was so much synergy between those three know, and obviously, Jeffrey is a great example of that. But I also think the Ben and Hannah, and specifically the scene that I just am going to jump to because, like I said, why do we need to go chronologically? Is the scene between Addison and Hannah, which is just brilliant. I mean, that genuinely, I think it is so perfect in every way. And I loved so much about just the dynamic of that scene. And then obviously, of course, the conceit, know, Hannah cannot see or hear Addison, but they're still in conversation with one another in this really wonderful way. Ben, can you talk about the scripting of that scene and just kind of how that scene might have appeared in your heads or in the writers know, collective heads or whatever, as far as what that scene meant and where that came from? [00:11:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, when Derek and I were. Had sort of go off and think about, like, okay, when we talk about this and breaking this tomorrow in the room, what are some of the things we want to see? And that was kind of high up on our list, was to see a moment where the two loves of Ben's life get to be in a scene with each other, even if they can't speak to each, even if they can't hear each other or actually interact with each other, that they are sharing a moment together. It felt like, in a weird way, that was a set piece of story that we were really excited to know. We were lucky in that we have two amazing actors in Caitlin and know under the mean. Poor Eliza was covered in all that debris for, like, hours, laying on a pad under all the set decking and props and stuff. And she was such a trooper and brought so much pathos and emotion to that moment. And we got to watch them bond. We got to watch these two incredibly strong, powerful women have forgetting the Ben of it all. Yes, it was subtextually, sure, Ben is present in that scene for both of them, but really, it was about the two of them being there for each other and Hannah trying to complete her equation. Addison trying to make sure that nothing terrible happens to know before it's too know until Ben can get. We're. It's very gratifying that you responded to that scene because that scene did mean a lot to us to. [00:13:36] Speaker B: Again, it was like the culmination of the journey of the two know. This was sort of like, if you're talking about, like a relay race of, like, the baton was handed off at the beginning of the season to Eliza to be Ben's sort of new love and connection and then through this whole season, going through the journey of those two together. But then handing the baton back to Addison, it's like, in a way of like, you are meant to be. I got you this far, but now I'm handing the baton back to you because you're the one that's supposed to be carrying this. This is your journey now, right? It's like my journey is complete or my journey is coming to an end. But your journey is just beginning in that fun way. And so the two of them. And again, it's like, yeah, just having the interaction between the two and the mutual respect for one another and Ben being sort of like that focal point but not that focal point. It's like, again, as Ben pointed out, because it was more than just about Ben's song at this, it's, again, it's like one thing to think of it in your head but it's another thing to watch it know when you're there on the set and you're watching these two performances and stuff and then both actors understanding that because they've lived with these characters and then now they're like, okay, now it's time to really bring it in this moment, right. And land that again. Can't praise Pamela enough. It's like, also with Pamela, just really sort of like getting them there and really sort of letting that moment be a moment. Because that's the other thing too, because it could. We very tricky, especially in the time crunch that we had on this episode where we hit the ground running and we had to figure out, we had to build sets really quickly and just try to cram everything as much as possible. Because then on top of that, it's like the minute that we finished shooting this, then it was like going right into post with our editors and working really fast because this all airs tomorrow night. This time, what would we say about five weeks ago, Ben, we were wrapping this up now? [00:15:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess so. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Roughly five or six. Yeah. It's really crazy how fast that all works. Sometimes you have to make these sacrifices and scenes and stuff like that. But this was a very important scene. And so allowing that scene to be a scene, it's really a moment is really nice to see. [00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, one of the things that's remarkable. No, go ahead. [00:16:24] Speaker C: In the Addison journey of it all in the back half of this season, her journey of taking back some of the agency that was taken away from her in our pilot and sort of figuring out what it is that she wants and what she's going to do and sort of Hannah's example, providing a reinforcement for the choice that she's subconsciously. It's not like a conscious thing at the moment. Talks, doesn't know what's going to happen in 13. We know as writers what's going to happen in 13 and how this services it. But given the choice she makes in 13, which audiences will probably have seen by this point, I hope. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we could definitely. [00:17:03] Speaker C: You have. I know you. [00:17:06] Speaker B: When is this going to air? That's why I feel like around, like I don't want to spoil anything because I'm feeling like this is going to come out before the episodes, but it's not. There's no way. [00:17:16] Speaker A: But it's not right. [00:17:18] Speaker B: So I'm being cautious about how I'm speaking around things, but then I'm like, oh, wait, by the time this comes out, everybody will have seen it, or most people will have seen it that are tuning into this podcast. Yeah. [00:17:32] Speaker C: Is a key stepping stone moment. I think it's the final moment that kind of helps play into her headspace for 13 and so that when she gets to that moment of choice, she takes the action that she does. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Realizing Addison is more than just the hologram, more than just Ben's love interest. It's like she has her purpose and her journey. And again, she was the original candidate to do the leaping. It was nice because of the fallout with Tom where that relationship came to an end and her realizing, like, I'm not doing this for Ben, I'm doing this for myself. I'm doing this because I know I need to push myself further and go in a direction that I've been holding back on. Right. [00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'll go ahead and throw this out there right now. If someone is listening or watching this in the future, say that you're watching on Peacock for the first time, for instance, or you've got the Blu rays and you're watching those for the first time, and you stopped know as the world burns and you rushed out and you're listening to all the podcasts or whatever, and you're listening to this now. This will be your final opportunity to step off the train because we are definitely going to go full spoilers against time, which is the finale, because we have this really unique opportunity to be able to talk with you guys about kind of the full scope of some of the stuff that's happening. And I really want to have the chance to do that. Sure. Maybe we could do that another time, but I feel like we've got the chance to do it now, especially while it's kind of fresh, we might as well do it. So that's your warning for anyone watching or listening in the future that hasn't yet seen against time, go check out against time, then come back and watch this and all the other stuff, the interview with Dean and drew as well, which I really enjoyed and got a lot of great information about that stuff. But as it pertains to this episode and knowing kind of where things are going, one of the things that was remarkable to me, especially about Caitlin's performance and the way that Addison is written in general, is that it became very clear to me kind of over the course of this episode. And then I took a know, actually, between as the world burns and against time. So I could just sit with it. [00:19:47] Speaker C: For a little while. [00:19:48] Speaker A: I didn't go straight into it, which is not necessarily the experience that people who are watching live will get to have, quite frankly. But in that break, one of the things that I couldn't help but think about is that for the character of Addison, especially since coming back from the break and it really started in the family treasure in 210, we really start to see her not only maybe reconnecting to her feelings for Ben, but basically reconnecting to herself. And I think recognizing that part of who she is is indeed connected to this other human being. And Hannah says it plainly, right, that some bonds can get stretched, but they'll always come back together. And that does represent their relationship. But to take it even a step further, she might have been the original candidate to leap, but I firmly believe that until against time, she is not ready to be a leaper. And I think that there's this beautiful progression and arc of the character that by the time we get to the end of against time, it's like, oh, yeah, she's ready to go out there and do it. And in some ways has an advantage over Sam or Ben because she has all that training, she has all that intent, all that purpose. But now she also knows what it is to really do this thing. It's not a theoretical, it's not an accident. It's like she can really go out there and really affect change for the better. So in kind of trying to prepare the character for that journey and prepare for getting these two people back together in some fashion, what kind of know went into that? And when you're kind of crafting this story and you mentioned kind of having that scene between Addison and Hannah towards the top of your list, I'm just curious what other elements for Addison there were to kind of help build on and start to complete this arc for the character that we've seen, not really even just for the past five episodes, not even for the past 13 episodes, but arguably for the past 30 plus episodes stretching back to the premiere. [00:21:50] Speaker C: It's a good question. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Well, if you want me to start, I think if anything, it's like you said, it's like the question has always been there, especially in the writers. For us, again, it will pop up when we're breaking an episode and it's like when we're trying to figure out what's Addison doing this know, where is she? And you want to keep know, the more you go along into a season. Right. And it's just sort of like, okay, where are each characters in this case? For Addison's character, it was like we knew early on, kind of like, okay, we want to get her, like, didn't know exactly if she was going to, what the ending was going to be, but definitely, again, where is she going to step up? What's that next level? Where in that way of that change that you want to see happen with your characters? Right. So I don't know if there was a particular moment in place, but I think it sort of, like, coalesced in a way when we were maybe, I don't know. I want to say right before the strike that we had the conversation in the room and someone, I forgot who it was that brought it up about know, because we were talking about the relationship between Addison and Tom and what's that really? What. What are we trying to do? Know what we landed on was, you know, it's. It's never been about and even know the relationship with her and Ben. We're not trying to basically spend our time trying to make it be about Ben getting back to Addison. Them back together. Right. Even though they are, like you said, intertwined. Right. They have that connection. But what does it really mean now for her as a character by herself? I think it was just more or less, again, it was like, by the time that we got to these last two episodes with Drew Lindo, our seven foot one tall, amazing co fellow Coep, every time I talk about him, I'm going to add another inch. It's like he just gets taller. It was very much a decision, sort of like, okay, now what? Where do we go from here? Right. How are we going to pay this off? What's the best way to pay this off? And so by the time that she steps into the accelerator, it's like, who is she? And why is she the right person to do this? Right. So that the spark was already ignited. I mean, it was already there. It was just like, where did the flames? And I think it was, like, for our episode, very much so. This is where it really was lit. Right? And it's conversation between her and Eliza is, like, with Caitlin. Again, also, Caitlin being very. And I say this a lot, and I share this with a lot of my friends, I said, we're so fortunate to have actors work with actors who really care about their characters and really want to be protective of their characters. And so that also, so you have those conversations and you've very much been able to help better shape them because you want your actors to be happy with what you write and create. So their input is just as invaluable as anyone else's. And again, to have that collaborative access has always been great for Addison to get to where she is. Like I said, yes, you're right. It's like over 30 episodes of looking back and saying, what are we really trying to say here? And then, so when it finally came together, that light bulb moment, you're like, oh, yes, how cool would this be? And then to have that surprise at the end. [00:26:06] Speaker C: Even in season one, we wanted to see something like that. We just couldn't justify it. It was something that we needed to earn it. Right? If you're going to do something like that, you've really got to earn it. Even though it is baked into the DNA of the character, the DNA of the show, what the program was supposed to be in this new iteration, but the timing for that kind of thing to happen was just not right. And this was the season that as the story unfolded, it was like, no, this is the time to do it. And the minute we hit on the notion of the way to get Ben home is to swap places, is a swap code that suddenly opened the floodgates to allow this possibility and have it be earned. Story based, character based, and very emotional at the same time. [00:26:58] Speaker B: And then as Addison being the character that understands sacrifice, again, former military, or know, understanding, know the cost of sacrifice, and without a seconds hesitation to saying, like, I'm the one to do this, it's not even love. It's like, but I'm the only one that can do this, right? [00:27:21] Speaker C: And the other side of it is, he did this for me. So if the moment is going to come where someone's going to have to make that choice, I'm doing it for him. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to add even more into this because everything that you said about it being character driven, it blossoms out even beyond Addison. Right. I think that obviously, her story ultimately, especially by the time we get to end of 213, is so incredibly important to the fabric of all of this. And it does feel like almost like this superhero origin story over the course of these last two seasons and prepping her and getting her ready for this and Ben as well, quite frankly, which. That final image that we see at the end of against time is so powerful for that very reason, because it's just sort of like they're running towards the fire, which connects nicely with this episode because he's in a fire. But to step away from the flames for a moment, I actually want to take a look at some of the project side of stuff because I feel like there's some stuff that gets set up again in this episode for these characters and for the choices that these people are willing to make and how far they're willing to go in order to protect this project, in order to potentially get Ben back home, whatever the case might be, that are, again, paid off against time so well. And they're set up beautifully here. And specifically, I want to talk about magic. And, you know, at the end of the know, magic says I'm going to serve myself up on a platter so that nobody else has to take the fall for, you know, we learn through the course of this episode that part of what he has in mind is to leave Jen in charge, which is wonderful because I feel like know she's had some good stuff. Don't get me wrong. I mean, even, like, for instance, in your last episode, one night in Koreatown, she has that beautiful scene with magic, but at the same time, I feel like she hasn't necessarily had a big role until these last two episodes. And in these last two episodes, she just gets some amazing stuff to do. And, of course, Nanrissa is more than up to the task. Can you talk a little bit about those dynamics in particular between the two of them and also how that feeds into so much of this character driven story as it pertains to what's happening back at hq? Ben, I'll go and start with. [00:29:40] Speaker C: I know we love Nanrissa and any opportunity to give her something to chew on. She always does an amazing job, which is why we were very excited to give her in this story the opportunity to step up and be the one in charge, despite her origins. Right. Given the fact. I mean, yes, it is highly unlikely that the government is going to trust this multibillion dollar science project to an ex con, however, she. [00:30:07] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know. I would have said that maybe about ten years ago. [00:30:18] Speaker C: Possible, but. [00:30:24] Speaker A: To sort. [00:30:24] Speaker C: Of demonstrate the level of faith that magic, her surrogate father, has in her, that, yes, I will fall upon my sword, but you're going to do this because it is the right thing for. This project was great, and it just gave us a chance to show what Jen's range is within the context of quantum leap, that she has leadership qualities that she's never really gotten the chance to explore. If we're lucky enough to get a season three, maybe we'll get to see more of that. I don't know. I mean, that would be nice because Jen is an integral part of our team. She's not just security. She's sort of like the entire infrastructure of quantum leap. The non science part of it. That's all her. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Due to the limitations of telling stories in 1 hour format on network television, which basically comes down to 42 minutes of network storytelling, there are a lot of stories for every character that we exist here and in the writers room on the board that you will never see the light of day or at least during the course of a season. We'll start out grandiose with, like, we want to see these characters have this stuff and doing all this stuff, and we're lucky we're able to grab those nuggets, those moments like this, where it's just like, again, especially the relationship between magic and Jen, the bond that they have, that father daughter, the love for one another in a way that really is sort of like, again, her journey to get to this moment of really stepping in and the only one capable of stepping into magic's shoes. Right. It's like, those are big shoes to fill. And magic believes like, no, you are the one. There's no doubt in my mind I could have got anyone, but you are the one that will be able to keep this program up and running while I'm gone. It's like, I believe in you. But for her to have to come to sort of those terms and look inward and start believing in herself because she's the one that's always sort of, like, waiting for that other shoe to drop because of the nature of her background and her history, where she came from and how she's like, again with Nanrissa being able to sort of something, the wheels are always turning in Jen's mind in that way of looking at things in ways that other people aren't looking at them because that's why magic brought her on. Right. It's like you're going to watch my back and then she not only watch her back, but then in turn she watched everybody else's back and then she ends up becoming the one that's going to of all of Quantum Leap. So that was the fun of being able to do that and get that out there in that way. [00:33:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and it informs so well. I think the sacrifice that Jen then makes in the next episode and against time, and it's like magic kind of imparts that lesson to her in a way. And I think that it's baked into, as you kind of mentioned earlier, it's baked into the dna of the character already. But this, I think, certainly kind of affirms that. And it's really lovely the way that it plays out. And of know, we're talking about some of this heavier to, and I'll start with you, Derek, but it provides us with some humor as know the exchange between magic and Jen with everything that's happening and going on, especially this deep into the season. And there's so much just big stuff for these characters that's coming and that happens in this episode. How do you still keep the humor? Because there's definitely some really wonderful moments of humor in the episode. I mean, even the fact that when Ben and Jeffrey are getting ready to escape the fire, Ben walks out into the hallway and it's like we can't go this way. There are these wonderful little moments of humor and not losing that while everything else is burning to the ground around. [00:34:30] Speaker B: Them because it's quantum leap. That's the nature of the show. We're just continuing the tradition of that. You want to have the heart, the humor. The episode would be so dower if you didn't have those moments. Right. And you have to understand when to time those moments. The last thing you want to do is between Hannah and Addison and then have a jokey joke moment. Right. It's like I'm dying, Addison, but at least I'm looking good. That would just take you out. Right. So you have to be able to wear your moments of levity. Where are the moments of that organic humor that doesn't feel forced or that you're just like trying to set up, set up joke type of thing. Right. And then, so when you're able to. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Have. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Fun, actors like Ernie and know and like, especially in the, it's like they already have such chemistry to begin with. It's very easy to write those moments and have that sort of thing right. So it just comes like, we get to sort of pick and choose. Like, okay, where would we like to see just a moment of a little bit of a crack, a smile, have a moment of fun as you're going through this sort of thing? But again, it's just sort of like, how do you calibrate that and make sure that it doesn't overstep or overshadow anything that really that you should be paying attention to as a viewer and telling a story. It varies from episode to episode. That's the thing. The nature of being able to write different type of stories every single episode, of not just having just be on the tracks of the same type of story from any middle to end. Right? [00:36:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:36] Speaker A: Well, I mean, it's remarkable, too. Just when you look at the episodes that the pair of you have written, you got to do a western, a medical drama, a historical, and now a towering inferno. Right. And yet the thing that's kind of remarkable about all of those episodes, but I think in some ways, even more so about this one, is how incredibly character driven it is. And I think that those moments of humor help inform that as well. One of the moments that I thought was very amusing is that as Ian and Jen are seeing Hannah write out the formula in the like, their reactions are just so fun and so alive. And obviously, that is in part, mean Nandrasa and Mason being awesome. Right. But in writing that scene, I think it's remarkable the times where I have enjoyed those types of scenes over the course of this season, especially where we're getting something happening within the leap and then we're seeing the reactions back at HQ and just how well they inform one another. It feels to me like that might actually be kind of one of those sort of light bulb moments as a room figuring that out, because it's not something that we necessarily saw used as much or in the same way in the first season. So I'm curious, and, Ben, I'll go ahead and pose this to, like, doing those types of scenes and being able to have that kind of synergy between the present day and the leap story. How do you do that? What goes into that? And again, how do you craft it in such a way that you've got that rich contrast between, again, Hannah's lying on the ground potentially in this life or death situation, and then back at the team, you're still able to find that hope and humor with all of that going on. [00:38:29] Speaker C: Sometimes, in this specific instance, I will say we absolutely had to lean into it. This was penultimate episode even though it was not originally meant to be a two night event, we thought we'd have that right. But for the story, we always knew this is going to set up our finale. So we have to do everything we can to write a scenario where you've got an a story and a b story, but they're kind of the same story. And we had the good fortune of nobody having figured out that code yet in a previous episode. So we're like, cool, we'll do that. We'll plant whatever seeds Drew is going to need for his episode, but at least we get to carry that plot point that's been. We've been tossing the balls downfield. Now it's our turn to really run. [00:39:30] Speaker A: It down that field to get it. [00:39:31] Speaker C: To a supporting position. And I think being able to, like I said, have that specific plot detail that allowed us to give our characters a moment of win while all this horrible shit's happening in the A story, we're getting this win that they've been waiting weeks for episodes for, and they finally crack it. And it's like you balance the drama and the potential tragedy and the tension with the joy. It's inevitable, of course. It's going to go hand in hand. It's going to work really well. The other thing from this is a very character driven episode, the plot element, and again, fortunate enough to be the penultimate episode, where you don't have to solve everything but take advantage of everything that's come before, is the fact that we got to set this as the last leap between Ben and Anne, knowing that that was going to be this story, all other good things sprang from that fertile soil, because that was right away we knew what part of the journey we're telling. We're telling the ending, and so how can we, in the context of a towering inferno story, which we were very grateful when we pitched it, that both Martin and Dean weren't like, you're fucking crazy. [00:40:57] Speaker A: There's no way. [00:40:58] Speaker C: They were like, absolutely, let's figure out how to do it. And props to them and to our production team for really moving mountains to make this story happen. So grateful for that. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Our production team, our stunt team, we were setting things on fire, man. With our stunt team being right next to the fire or in the fire, it's like. [00:41:24] Speaker C: But we had that. So we had all those elements in front of us. So it made it very easy to get back to your question. To write a story where the leap and the headquarters stories were interwoven. Other times, it's a little bit more challenging because we know that very often our headquarters stories carry whatever mythology, season, plot mythology, we're going to want to. Sometimes it moves things incrementally. You don't take big leaps, but within the context of those stories, you get nice character development moments where you get to know Ian and Jen and magic better, and we fall in love with them a little bit more every time we do that. And sometimes, again, it's deeply woven into the A story, and sometimes it's tangential. You find a balance, but at the end of the day, you use those opportunities to get to the ones where you can weave them together like we got to do in these last two episodes. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Yeah. It's incredible, too, because the episode, I feel like it stands so well on its own. I just enjoy it as this singular episode. So there is that element of like, oh, what would this have been like if there had been one week for 212 and one week for 213 instead of having both of them together? And yet it is obviously completely inseparable from the fabric of the rest of the season and especially from what happens in against time. So you mentioned Hannah and the last leap between Ben and Hannah. I would love to just hear more about your thoughts on that and crafting and because almost more so than any other mean, obviously, I think secret history, mostly. Nomad, definitely. I think even more than secret history in some ways, but I think in some ways, as the world burns, might be more of a Ben and Hannah episode than even those two episodes were, in some ways. So in doing kind of the last leap and having the two of them together in this way, I would just love to know more about your thoughts on that. And then I'll also throw one specific question out there. Was there ever a plan or ever a thought in your all's mind about. Because it gets pushed so close to the edge about actually having Hannah die in the episode as opposed to making it out alive. Whoever wants to go first? [00:44:01] Speaker B: No, I don't think there we again, it's like, eliza is just so wonderful and amazing. It was such a joy. And again, it was just like, again, we really lucked out in that way of finding somebody that really brought that magic of what the character needed and also for the relationship, for Ben over the course of this season. And I think we also didn't want to have the trope of killing someone like that. Right. That was very early on. It was like, no, let's not go down that road unless it actually is something that. But you don't want to have that sacrifice in that way of, like, why there's so many other ways to tell that story. And thankfully, we didn't really ever entertain that. I don't think that was ever a serious conversation about, should we kill her off or not. [00:45:01] Speaker A: I feared for her. So congratulations, though, because I think that in this day and age where terms like plot armor and et cetera get thrown around the Internet and all that sort of stuff, I genuinely was afraid that this was going to happen. And so much so to the point that I actually mentioned it on the last episode of the podcast. I was like, I think Hannah might die in the next episode. [00:45:19] Speaker B: Well, we want our viewers. You never want to make it feel like that. Oh, this character. You never have to be worried about this character, especially if you do the job right as the writers. It's like you want to make sure that you have invested and been on this journey with this character and care about this character as much as we do. And you want to be concerned like, oh, man, what if they don't make it? But you don't want to also do the head fake of like, no, it should be more about, like, I don't know if she's going to make it or not. If you do it right versus of like, oh, she's going to walk out of this fine. It's like, I don't know, she might not. Also, because it's fun seeing how audiences like fans thinking about, like, oh, what if that formula does this? I think there was a couple of people that reached out. Like, one in particular reached out to Ben, a mutual friend of ours, that said, I think I know what this is. And he did. He figured it out also. He's a writer. He's a very talented writer. [00:46:36] Speaker A: But also a fan. And that's important, too. [00:46:39] Speaker C: Fan of the original fan of us. He loves both shows. And the fact that our episode is the one where he's like, when I'm proven right, you can buy me dinner. I'm like, all right, well, I guess our episode is where we prove you right. [00:46:52] Speaker B: Do we give him a shout out? Do we reveal who it is? [00:46:57] Speaker C: No. [00:47:02] Speaker B: But if he's listening to this, then he knows that we owe him. Yeah. Speaking of quick shout out, I wanted to say also for any fledgling quantum physicists out there, just in general, the formula, Hannah's formula is as real as you can get. I mean, it's pretty real in a way of, because I'm on what's called the science and entertainment Exchange Committee, part of that, which is part of the National Academy of Sciences. And what they do is they pair up anybody that works in the industry with scientists and any science related based type of consulting that you might need as a storyteller. And in this case, fortunately enough, we reached out to my budy, Rick Lovert, who runs the program, and he was like, I said, need a quantum physicist for time travel. And he was like, what about Spiros? And I was like, oh, yeah, I knew it was Spiros Mekalakis who. He's at Caltech in quantum information and matter, and he was the one that created that formula that you see on Ian's board. And then basically, which is Hannah's equation. And so Ben was saying, being fortunate enough, that because we were like, wait, does the formula exist or not? And then once we found out it did, we're okay. Let's. Let's run with. So I, you know, talked to him. I said like, hey, man, look, this is what we need. We need an existing formula. And he goes, I already got one. I've been working on. I've been working on. Wait, what? He was like, oh, yeah, I got a time travel, like, okay. And so he up. And then on top of that, we were like, well, we need the missing component that Hannah is going to basically scrawl in the floor. And he was able to craft that as well. So that's all his work there that you're seeing there. So there's know, aspiring time travel aficionados that are looking to try to crack it themselves. You might want to start there. It was fun also. It was like watching Ben get his mind scrambled talking. [00:49:32] Speaker C: He was on set with us when we were shooting those scenes, and in between takes, he was explaining things to me, and I was like, I'm a lower order of primate. You're really like, I'm sorry I haven't evolved to whatever level you are at, so please stop breaking my brain because it's starting to hurt. I've got to watch this scene. [00:50:00] Speaker A: That's fantastic. I love that so much. When the Tamita Takasaki principle was dropped, I immediately went and looked that up and started reading. Even reading it, my brain started to get broken. So I can only imagine what it would be like to have an expert standing next to you, articulate, you know, kind of similar question. But the approach overall, to know this leap for Hannah and know we've talked a bit about Hannah already, obviously, but I think specific to this episode and to where she is and to what the leap means from her side of things. Can you talk a little bit to that, yeah. [00:50:47] Speaker C: I mean, this is the end of the love story, right? So it's the day they both knew was going to come, didn't know when, didn't know how, didn't know what scenario. And for them to find themselves in that scenario at a time where she's struggling. She's struggling with her son, struggling to make ends meet. She's a single mother at this point in 1974, it's maybe not so easy. And she's working on this big project, which she knows the audience doesn't know, is for Ben's sake, is to try and help him, is to try and get him home. Whatever home may be, whatever the definition of home is, which we cover in these two know she's living her life, and then all of a sudden he's there in it again. All the math has said, this is going to be the end. We're not going know see each other again. So it's goodbye. So she comes into his arrival. The minute she realizes that that firefighter is Ben song, it all kind of comes crashing down for her in a lot of ways because she hasn't solved the equation. She hasn't figured it out. She's not done, and she's never going to see him after this is over. When he saves whatever lives he's here to save, it's goodbye forever. And the fun of this episode, because we had the luxury of being able to tell the end of that story, that last leap together meant it could actually be about her in a way, a little bit more directly than some of those other leaps were. Yeah, it still technically was about her, but it was really more about Jeffrey in some ways. It was about getting the two of them back together and reuniting mother and son, emotionally reconnecting them. Know, Ben's lead post died in a fire trying to know four construction workers. He pulls that off early, but story's not over yet, right? I think that's another reason why I think I'm glad that you felt that sense of, okay, are they really going to kill Hannah? Was because we put him in that scenario where it was, you have to pick one of two people to save, and it's either the kid or his mother. It's going to be Jeffrey or Hannah. Who are you going to choose? That's an impossible choice for Ben song to have to make. Knowing that he loses the love of his life or the love of his life loses the love of her life. And what do I do? I have to do what she wants me to do. And that ultimately turned out to be the right choice for him. [00:53:29] Speaker A: So. [00:53:32] Speaker C: It was great to be able to just sort of tell the story of their love ending with this triumph. Right. That in figuring out multiple triumphs, realizing what it is, is missing from the equation. The x factor that she couldn't quite solve. His presence, their conversations about love and its timelessness are what led to her being able to solve that equation, which then gives our team the means that they need to figure out how to get Ben home. Meanwhile, Ben is saving Jeffrey and still managing to save Hannah as well, despite all the ods, because he's a hero. Know, he's the mean. It's a great way for us to sort of go out for the season. [00:54:17] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think that the other thing that you can't write to a theme, I understand you can, but it generally doesn't work out very well. But I think that one of the themes of this season, of course, has been the nature of sacrifice and themes of loss and grief as well, but nature of sacrifice. And I think in this episode, it's driven home due to the nature of that choice. You have to save my son. You can't save both of us. And that Hannah is willing to sacrifice herself in order to ensure that Ben saves Jeffrey. Derek, do you want to talk a little bit about the nature of sacrifice throughout the season? Of course. And again, how you kind of said you can't necessarily write to that, and yet at the same time, it is integral, I think, to the season and especially these last couple of episodes. [00:55:10] Speaker B: I think it's always sort of like, not so much front of mind, but it's just there. And just also in the conversations, again, of where we see characters start out, the beginning of the journey versus where they are at the end, and then what are the sacrifices that are going to come into play? Who's going to make those sacrifices? Are there sacrifices that need to be made? It's like, can we find another way to do it without the sacrifice of the expected sacrifice, right. Except for the big one, which was like, that was a fun surprise for all of us to get to that point and like, oh, we finally get to make this big sacrifice play. So I don't know if there's any sort of, like, one particular moment. I think with each writer, it's like the credit to each writer of their story as they're crafting it and as we're breaking it in the room. [00:56:02] Speaker A: What. [00:56:03] Speaker B: Works, what doesn't work and finding it, and again, finding it, if you like, making it and also not overplaying it because you don't want to keep going back to that. Well, right. Even though there's different ways to do the sacrifice, but it also comes down to still the sacrifice. So if you're going to make a sacrifice play, you want to make sure that it's special or at least special to that episode. But again, you don't want to have every episode come down to, like, who's the sacrifice in this one? What's the sacrifice going to be again, for each character? Because after a while, it's just like, oh, God, another sacrifice. Okay, here we go. Even as a viewer, if you can't articulate it, you're still sort of sitting there, like, saying, why does this feel so familiar? Why does this feel like. And then, are we really gaining anything from that? Right. If you keep using that over and over again? So again, it's just sort of like, as we, Ben and I, when we're writing our stories of, like, okay, how is the sacrifice going to play out if we're going to do that? And then you just make that determination from there. But in this case, for us, for this episode, again, business being the penultimate episode and leading up to that, again, you want to make sure that whatever sacrifice that you might have in mind doesn't overshadow the big one, right. The big moment in such a way or at least be distinctive enough that it doesn't feel like that. It's just a repetitive. With. With Hannah doing what she's doing and how she's trapped and how she feels, like, you know what? I'm doing this all because it matters, that I got to make sure that Ben gets know. But at the same time, it's like she's like, this is a culmination of my life's work, but also, I need to protect my kid. But if there's a moment here, in this moment of what's the sacrifice? It's like, okay, as long as I know my kid's safe, then I'm willing to sacrifice my life to make sure that Ben is also going to be able to sit safe, be able to get home. Right? It's like, that's sort of the choice, Hobson's choice that's going on there. So I think for us, it was like, as we were writing this episode, that definitely. It's like, how do you thread that, make it worth the moment that actually pays off? And I like to think that we did it this time around. [00:58:32] Speaker A: I absolutely think so. I mean, genuinely, I absolutely think so, because it comes across very powerful. And I think that one of the things that kind of helps to pay it off, in a way, is the scene between Ben and Jeffrey in the apartment, as Jeffrey has gone back for Josh's stuff. And it's fascinating because one of the things that looms large over this episode, and again, spoilers for anyone that is still listening at this point and hasn't seen against time, but Gideon's shadow looms large over this episode. And I think that we might not necessarily know that watching this episode without having seen the following episode. And yet it is so apparent that this is clearly, in a way, this is kind of like the supervillain origin story in some ways. And it's done so well because it's not anything pat or wrote and it doesn't feel cliche. There's so much emotion involved in it. And obviously that grief and that mourning. Ben, talk a little bit about writing those scenes. That scene specifically between Ben and know obviously Wyatt was amazing and Bray is always incredible. So you've got two people that are in there and then they're going to give great work. But just the idea of putting these two people together in that room, especially knowing where things are going from here and how you put that. [01:00:03] Speaker C: All of the. Some of the fun of that storyline was this is where we get to see Jeffrey figure it out. This is where the pieces fall into place for him. And we're watching the moments that lead to that revelation at the end for him, which we, as writers know, has been bubbling for the past 50 years behind the scenes. Everything that's happened in the QLB stories of the chip and the deal that Ian struck and Rachel, that's all the shadow of Gideon Ridge there. And then ultimately getting, you know, even being busted. Magic's decision to throw himself on the sword, like all of that, we're getting to sort of see those moments at the same time that Ben is trying to save this kid's life, is trying to help this kid deal with the loss of a father, which was another. We were all aware of Ben's feelings towards his mother's death, which gets obviously brought up again in 13. But here he talks about his absent father, right? He says, I know what it's like to lose a father next episode. He's like, I didn't know him, but I know the loss. And that's the thing, is that he's trying to sort of dig into that and use that as a way to connect to this. Ultimately, it helps, it gets him there. Combined with the fact that we're in a burning building. If we don't get the fuck out of here, we're going to help. But he's going to a place that is really uncomfortable for Ben because it is a great hole in his heart and in his life that has never been filled. And here he is trying to convince this kid that, or help him understand that it is never going to be filled. But there has to be forward momentum. You can't stay stuck in those feelings forever. You have to move past it. You have to aspire to something else, to feel something. [01:02:21] Speaker A: Mean. [01:02:22] Speaker C: We're lucky that it got through to Jeffrey, gets him out of danger. But Derek and I were joking about this on set. We're like, we're watching those know they're shooting the scenes or they're out on the ledge. And we know if it's kind of Ben's fault, like he could have just let Jeffrey die, and then rich stuff would have happened, and of course that would have never happened. But it was just a moment. We're like, all right, well, but then to have that moment where. Which we love to be able to show the moment where he discovers it, where he opens the letter, the one thing that he managed to salvage, becomes the thing that opens his eyes to what he just experienced. Why he knew his mother's name. Why do they seem to know each other so well? What is this connection? Right. It's not just because, oh, you're a fireman who showed up in our building, because our building is prone to fires. It's because you're that fucking guy that destroyed my family. [01:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah. The power, I think of the moment of getting him out and using know that we saw in off the cuff that Josh used to Jeffrey when the bad guys were coming to the house. I mean, the choice to use those words and how that informs what happens next for Jeffrey. And then you couple that with the letter, and you couple that with him looking over and seeing his mom and this firefighter, that clearly there's something more there. It's so strong. And again, I think that it informs so much of what comes next in a really wonderful way. I want to get back to Gideon here in just a second, but before I do, I know you guys are comic book guys. I just have to ask. The moment with know I'll catch you. Who's going to catch you moment? Was that an intentional little nod to Superman, the movie? Because all I could think as I saw that was about the scene where he catches. Exactly. Was that intentional at all? Or am I just reading into it? Because that's where my brain is. [01:04:40] Speaker C: I mean, you can think of it that way if you want. [01:04:46] Speaker A: Fair enough. [01:04:46] Speaker B: I will say this. It's like for Ben and I, whenever we write, we definitely sprinkle our in when we can. Because the moment with Mason delivering the. We had so much fun with that. And then a. There was a take where they. They go con. That was awesome. [01:05:19] Speaker A: I'm so glad you brought that up because that was another. [01:05:25] Speaker B: Whenever we get a moment where we can, we'll put a reference or two in there, slip something in, and we can maybe sometimes not so obvious, but it is just definitely, that's just us. You can go look at any episode, something that we do. There will be a moment. If there was somebody on the sideline, they'd be pointing nerd. [01:05:51] Speaker C: Going back to 105. I mean, the western, it was love it when a plane comes together. [01:05:56] Speaker A: Yes. Like I said, I wanted to get back to Gideon, but I wanted to take that side step real quick. You mentioned earlier, Ben, about the emotional state of Gideon and that being a child. Right, Jeffrey, the same way. Like, yes. Huge intellect and someone that has a grasp of all of these things, but emotionally is still know a little boy. And when I interviewed Deborah, luckily, it was something that I had already guessed, but I don't know if I should say this or not, but Deborah inadvertently spoiled the identity of Gideon. Now, I cut it out, obviously, of the interview when I dropped it. But that said, one of the things that she said in that moment that my listeners unfortunately didn't get to hear, and I'll be able to drop it later at some point, is she talked about talking with James Frane about that very fact about, like, you are a little boy who lost his dad. Right. And in this instance, in the scene that she was specifically talking about in the outsider, it's like, you won the game. You won the video game, right? You've won. Kind of threading all that together. We never get to see Gideon specifically. We do get to see him. But I also know that that scene was actually technically for 213 at the end. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Right? [01:07:17] Speaker A: Like, that was not originally for as the world burns. Is that right? When we see Gideon at the end? [01:07:23] Speaker C: No, but where it goes from there was originally the top of 13. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. [01:07:31] Speaker C: We ended with, I'm in charge now. [01:07:34] Speaker A: Okay, got you. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. I actually didn't get a chance to ask drew that earlier when I was chatting with, um. But all of that, you know, having the shadow of that character kind of loom so large over all of this, and knowing that you are kind of crafting this origin story in so many ways for him and that childlike quality. Can you just talk about the know, Derek, for you? That this character and knowing where Gideon was going and knowing what ultimately was going to happen, how that might have informed some of the choices that you made with Jeffrey over the course of this episode? [01:08:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this was sort of a building it backwards type of situation, because it was like we weren't completely sure who Gideon was, Ridge was, and then what his damage was, other than it was like, we knew that it was Jeffrey connected. How does know? And so as we were figuring all this out post strike, a lot more where we really started to dig in, saying, like, oh, shit, we got five episodes. We really need to figure some things out here that we kind of thought like, oh, it's kicking the can down the road. Like, okay, we'll get to that. But what you never want to do is be able to come up in the 11th hour. So you're like, oh, my God. We don't even know who our bad guy is, who the antagonist of the season and stuff. So, again, having that time off allowed us to sort of, like, when we came back in to really sort of figure things out. And so we were like, okay, what is his damage? How does that damage know? It's like you said it was Deborah saying, it's like, it's a hurt little boy. A boy that's lost everything in his mind, and then finally being able to figure out and been carrying this hate and this grudge of once he knew who was responsible for it or who he believed was responsible for it. And it has informed his decision and this process to become this person who he is when he finally reveals himself to be that person. So as you're writing that you're figuring out, okay, walking that tightrope of how much do you want to give away? How little do you want to give away? And then also, again, looking at the responsibility of handing it off to make sure that it makes sense in the next episode, because you only have one more episode left. And so what we don't want to do is you don't want to leave Drew with the bag saying, like, all right, good luck. There you go. You figure it out for yourself, man. You want to be able to give him enough that he can play with and figure it out, and then really sort of like, okay, what can I do with that? Right? But that happens in the writer's room. A lot of that is just the conversations we're trying to figure out these last five episodes of, like, when are we going to reveal these moments? How are we going to play this out? Where are you planting those seeds along the way so that it can grow in the right way versus just making it feel like that it's coming straight out of left field? Right. Sometimes that's the thing of, like, whoa, what? Who's this person? So you never want to do that. So that, I think, is just this long winded way of saying that you just have to really sort of look at the entire map and not just focus on the one moment that you're trying to tell. [01:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Speaking of looking at the entire map, and there are a couple of other episode specific things that I do want to ask, but to transition to looking at the entire map. Ben, when you think back on season two as a whole and kind of the place that this episode certainly falls and what it does, what are some of your general thoughts? Just about shaping this season and being a part of doing that in the writers room and obviously, the unique circumstances of starting up while season one is still technically in production. Right. Then having to take this long break because of the strikes and then coming back to it maybe with a little bit of. A small bit of benefit. Right. Because now you can see all these episodes and you can start to see what people are saying and you're not necessarily doing this and just how that picture has looked to you and what it's meant to you. [01:12:00] Speaker C: I think the fact that we did just go right into it at a time while we're literally launching a rocket at the same time that we're landing a plane. Right. And the takeaway from the landing of that plane had to inform the launch of this rocket for season two. And there were things that I think we learned about what works, what doesn't work, and how coming into the next season, what are we going to keep? What are we going to jettison? What do we want to lean into? What do we want to shy away from? And I think the biggest shift was realizing that the real sweet spot for our show is being able to have you spent a season getting to know everybody now. You know everybody now let's really dig into these people as people and make you really care about them and having their emotional stakes not be the same thing as the plot stakes. Right. Where you're like, okay, yes, they have these roles that they perform for quantum leap, but in shifting the paradigm of Ben didn't come back when we thought he was supposed to, we thought we solved the problem. We didn't solve the problem. And now it's created a whole other set of problems which we all now have to live with and it changes us and it affects us. I think that was probably one of the best decisions we could have made for story, I think. All credit to Martin and Dean for coming up with that direction for this season because it gave us the leeway to dig deeper into the people, to marry them more to the plot of the season. Mythology was an emotional mythology rather than an external threat mythology. [01:14:01] Speaker A: It's not about MacGuffins or smoke monsters or anything. [01:14:03] Speaker C: It's about mean. [01:14:06] Speaker A: Those. [01:14:06] Speaker C: So those first eight know really leaned into know. We gave Ben a new love. We had Addison have to grieve magic, struggled with alcoholism, gave Addison a new love. Gave Addison a new love. [01:14:20] Speaker B: Introduced. [01:14:20] Speaker A: Right. [01:14:20] Speaker C: Introduced Tom to Quantum leap. Like, changed the dynamic of home and turned it into a real love triangle or I guess a love quadrangle, if you really think about it. [01:14:31] Speaker A: Right. [01:14:32] Speaker C: So maybe it's a love rhombus. Would it be a rhombus? I don't know. But in this love rhombus, we got some really great characters. [01:14:41] Speaker B: I hope that doesn't. [01:14:46] Speaker C: Now it's in your head. You can't get it out your. So I don't know. I mean, I feel like all these things that we decided to focus on made the stakes of everything that much greater because we were really rooting for these people and their situations and I don't know, it just became a great driving force for the season that when we got to that break and we had to stop because of the strike, when we came back, the goal became. [01:15:23] Speaker B: How do we really bring the rocket back down safely? [01:15:27] Speaker C: Exactly. That we don't crash the land. [01:15:32] Speaker A: Right. [01:15:32] Speaker B: The rocket has hit what, Apigee. Right. And it's like, well, okay, how do we bring it back down without crashing and burning here? And that's the thing. But I will say this, it's like, you know, it works. You know, you're on the right track when we're able to break episodes. We were breaking episodes rather quickly, even though it was the rush of like, well, we got to do this in case there's going to be a strike because we didn't know there was going to be a strike or not because he hadn't even entered negotiations, but the looming threat of a strike. So there was a pressure of getting these episodes out and stuff like that. But we knew it was working when the episodes. When the stories are coming together when it feels much more effortless in the room, because it was like we would break stories in the room and be driven by Alex Berger, who was like our ep in the room. And then we would all just sit down, and sometimes we can break a story within less than a week's time. And then Martin and Dean would come in, they'd weigh in, be like this, and then it would just click. You knew when something would click. When a story didn't work, it would take longer, and then it's like, okay, it's not working. But over the course of the season, we felt the magic of it. We felt that there was something special here that we were able to carry over from season one in this way. And then it was reflective of, like, once the fans actually got to see the episodes, it was like, okay, they also are enjoying this season. They also paying off and stuff. So it was very important of like, okay, we got this far. We need to make sure that, again, the rocket needs to land and not crash and burn. We need to be able to have the occupants of this rocket be able to walk safely away and have their ticket. Tape raid. Right? You want that, right. So those last five episodes as a whole, you're looking at it like, okay, how are we going to address these things in this amount of time? And in a perfect world, the hope would be that we were going to get more episodes. But because of the timing of the issue of where we were, and it's not to knock the studio of the network in this case, it was just a matter of economics and time. Unfortunately, the time slot that we have, it's like you're going up against all that stuff. So we were like, okay, well, we're going to have to make sure that 13 ends in such a way that we want to put that hook in there and come back. We're season three. Give us a season three. Come on. Season three. Right. Absolutely. But again, along the way, having a network in a studio that's very supportive and encouraging and really believing in what you're doing, that gives you that extra push to be able to like, okay, you want to make sure that you put your best foot forward. And we're giving it our all to make sure that we deliver, not just for ourselves and for everybody that's working on the show, but also for the fans that actually tune in for the show to make it possible in the first. That's. I think there's a bit of an adrenaline rush when you're knowing when a story is working. You're like, yeah. You're like, oh, I can't wait to see how people are going to react to that. Where it came down to for this episode, we're like, oh, towering Inferno. Towering Inferno. [01:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Where did that come from? Because I wanted to ask that, but where did the idea for that come? Just, is it something you always wanted to know? [01:19:12] Speaker C: It's one of those things. You're like, okay, what do we want to dress up ray in this week? That's how I approach it. It's like, what cool outfit and uniform can I put him in this week that hopefully he'll have fun with and that audiences will recognize a, what a great actor he is, b, he can have the opportunity to be heroic and save the day. And it's like, well, we haven't done firefighter yet. [01:19:35] Speaker A: I mean, you all have given us some pretty interesting ones, right? The western gear, Dr. Scrubs now firefighter. So kudos going back to the episode. And again, one of my favorite scenes, and we kind of started off talking a bit about that Hannah and Addison scene, which is lovely, but of course, is the Ben and Hannah goodbye. Know what we think at the time of this episode is going to be their mean. It's beautiful. And obviously Eliza is remarkable in the scene. One of the other things that immediately affected me is the know Daniel Jameson scores. Lovely has been every time we see Addison, but here it just know even more kind of elegaic in a way. And then, of course, the, you know, we talked about collaboration a bit, but when you get the fusion of all of that working together and the way that, the choice of the scenes, the way that they're edited, know Hannah's lines, I would love to just hear about that scene and the crafting of that scene and then being on set, seeing it realized finally. Ben, can you kind of take us through? [01:20:54] Speaker C: I mean, obviously it's a lot of pressure to deliver something big and emotional at the very end of this season long romance. And our impulse was for Hannah to be able to say thank, you know, the gift that Ben gave her at the same time that she's giving him a gift in like, having him realize that what he's done for her is not lost on her and has moved her in a way that she never would have imagined. And that because of that, I have a life that I never would have had had you not come into my diner. And now I do. And because of you, I want to give that gift in return. A fun fact about the post of it all was that those flashback scenes were not originally in there. That was the decision that Martin made in post. And very wisely and beautifully to have us relive some of those moments mean, I'm talking about all the flashbacks that you see in the episode. [01:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that came out in a conversation. And watching magician. Like, you're sitting there and he's working with the editors and he's like, yeah, punch in on this, do this, stretch out this. And it's like. And then the editor, they do it, and then you're like, oh, that actually works. It was fun for us because part of the. Part that there's the three stages of sort of like your writing is like you're writing the script and then you're writing when you're shooting, and then your writing also is happening in post. And for the most part, Ben and I, it's rare when you're on a show, when you get to have that experience of being able to really be in post and be a part of that. And it shouldn't be a rarity because all writers need to learn how to be a part of that. And Martin being very supportive of the writers and believing like, no, because someday you're going to run your own show, you're going to need to know how to do this. And so he wants to make sure that every writer gets to have that experience of not just being on set, but also understanding how it works in post as well, if there's time given. And so in this place, there was time for us to be a part of that. Sit down. Sometimes if you're running under, then it's like, okay, how do you make it so that the episode is going to be able to deliver on time? So there's little tricks and moments and stuff like that. And in this case, it was a trick as well as an actual reason for that moment to be there. So for these flashbacks, because it just has that emotional gut punch that it was just that extra bit of that oomph of like, oh, hits you right, where. Especially if you've been following them on this journey to see it all sort of play out. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I have been known at times to be a bit of a crier. I will certainly say that over the course of these two episodes, there were certainly a lot of tears. And I think, again, just kind of going back to speaking to the season as a whole. So much stuff was built so beautifully and then capitalized on that's not even the right word. I mean, that almost seems like it's some sort of economics lesson. But the payoffs that we received because of the emotional depth of these characters and the way that it had grown over the course of the season was so moving and satisfying in some instances. And I think that this goodbye scene between Ben and Hannah, it really played to all of those strengths really beautifully, and I was definitely moved by it. And again, it was one of those things where I bought into, yeah, that is the last time we're ever going to see them together. Right. And that the finale is going to go off in a different direction or whatever. I'm grateful for the scene that we did get with Hannah against time, obviously, but there was nothing about this that kind of felt like, oh, don't worry, you're going to see her again. It definitely had that finality to it, so it worked really well. [01:25:23] Speaker C: It was fun being fun. I mean, it was being on set for that scene. Like, you're sitting in the village, you're watching these two amazing actors say these words, making them sound better than you ever would have imagined, that you put on page and you just sort of get lost. You get sucked into the monitor. All right, that was great. That's not really happening. They're just acting. But it was very gratifying. [01:25:52] Speaker B: Again, and it's all earned. I mean, even, like, in the moment of the episode, the outsider, right, where Ben is work with the reporter, and he takes that moment to go to the payphone and he tries to call Hannah. Right. And again, that moment would not work if you hadn't earned it from the previous times that they've been together. And again, you're rooting for these two, but understanding that there is a ticking clock on these two, it's just the nature of where it is. But you're hoping, like, okay, how is this going to end? How is this going to play out? And so for that moment, for Ray and Eliza to really sort of just bring it home in a way that you just hope it's not, like a lack of confidence in the two of them because you know that they're going to deliver because they're just so fantastic. But you just never know until you're actually in that moment. Like, as Ben was saying, you're just getting captivated. Like, come know, let's see this. And then you're like, whoa. And then when it's all cut together and you're watching these two episodes together, like, you're. I. There was moments where I would just also, I was sort of like, I ain't going to cry, but. [01:27:07] Speaker C: I definitely got a couple of moments. [01:27:16] Speaker A: Speaking of, it's also contrasted with this scene with Jeffrey, and there's not really any dialogue there. Right. Like, he's just sitting there reading the letter. And again, what a home run from Wyatt, because I think it's so beautifully played. [01:27:28] Speaker C: That's like you're watching Damien being born in that moment. Yeah. [01:27:32] Speaker A: Okay, so it's funny that you mentioned that, because at the end of 212, I texted drew, because I took a little break and I texted Drew, and I was like, you know, I think, gideon, there might be some redeemable qualities to him. Okay. There just might be. And then I'm watching 213, and there's the scene between Ben and Getty and the racetrack, and I text Drew, and I'm like, nah, he's Satan. Because it was just, like, the way that James really turned that on and that scene was written. It was lovely. But no, the question I wanted to ask about the letter is the choice to have him read the letter at that point. You talked just a little bit about it earlier, but I would love to hear specifically what went into kind of creating that moment. And, Ben, I'll go ahead and throw that to you. [01:28:19] Speaker C: Well, I mean, how are we going to get it across? What was the thing that was sort of the punctuation on the sentence? And again, the fact that he had to leave all his father's stuff behind. Right. None of that shit. I mean, he could have taken one or two other items, maybe, but it's not as portable as something you can stick in your pocket, carry with you and unveil at the very end. So it felt like the most organic thing to survive the fire, but also the most necessary thing to have survive the fire, because it tells the tale, because it answers any question he would have had is tied up in that letter, and it all falls into place because of it. [01:29:04] Speaker B: And also, we're a time travel show, so you can't have fun moments like this. What are you doing? What type of show are you doing if you can't have a fun moment like this? Right. It's like we back to the nod to Doc Brown and Marty McFly. It's like you want to have those type of fun moments, but in such a way that it was also sort of, like, revealing. Again, it was not just for the sake of it just being the moment. It's like, okay, if you're going to do this, what's this going to lead to? And the domino effect of that. Right. Again, the consequences of time travel and also where he thought he was saving Jeffrey's father's life. Right? But then couldn't save him. Prolonged his life a little bit, but ultimately he still died. And what's going to be the ripple effect of this? We're seeing that play out in sort of that real time, because that's the benefit of being a two parter, is you see that moment where he is becoming Damien, and then all of a sudden, he steps into the QL headquarters and is like, oh, shit, this is the same dude. This is it. And revealing that. That's fun. That's part of the fun. Absolutely. [01:30:36] Speaker A: Well, it's funny because one of the things that I had mentioned to someone after what was drew, after I saw 210 is I immediately thought about, like, what if somebody else gets that letter instead of Hannah? And my thought was like, josh is going to read that letter. And obviously, in 213, we do see that that is one of the things that happens. But at the end of this episode, seeing Jeffrey read it, I was just like, oh, no, Josh isn't going to read. It's going to be Jeffrey. Oh, no. And it is. It's just such a big moment and kind of to your point, too, Derek, it's something that you can really only do in a show like this. Right? And it was great because the other thing is that it just struck, like, this very human chord, too. Like, oh, my God. Imagine if you are that kid reading that letter. Like, holy shit. That is going to absolutely warp your worldview in so many ways. And then you look over and you see your mom and the firefighter. It's like, what is happening? So as we kind of get ready to wrap up, I would love to ask you both about against time as well, because, again, you get the opportunity, you set these things up, and here you are, the penultimate episode, and now here comes the finale. And being in the writer's room, obviously, you're involved. You know what's going on, you're contributing and that sort of stuff. But to see this finale realized and to see season two brought home, what were your feelings? Derek, I'll start with you. [01:32:03] Speaker B: Surprise. [01:32:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:32:06] Speaker B: It was like there were moments that we didn't know were going to happen, because once we broke our episode and then we had to write the episode, we're not in the room as much. And so we're keeping tabs on everything that's going on. And again, we know the bigger things again of the addison of it and the Gideon connection and the Ben, but we didn't know there was a lot of stuff that happened in there that we weren't privy to because we were just busy working on our episode again, making sure that we get our part right. And so, yeah, I would say, honestly, there was surprise when you'd see the notes or you see the beat sheet or outline or scripting, for that matter, and you're like, oh, what happened here? It's like, oh, I didn't see that. Oh, Jen. Oh, damn, magic's back. Oh. Stuff like that. Again, it was just like, so that was kind of fun and just sort of like, the surprise of it. Then drew just really, also, again, Drew had, you know, he knew exactly what he wanted to tell and how to do it. And I think that's the other thing that's fun about it is that a lot of it where we break stuff in the room, but a lot of times it's because the encouragement is like, this is your episode. This is your story. So really figure out, as much as possible, take ownership of that, then come into the room and say, like, okay, now all of us together in the collaborative know, taking all the best ideas and really sort of, like, figuring out the episode itself. And for me, I won't speak for Ben. I think it was just more. A lot of it was just, like, the fun little surprises that I didn't know what was going to happen. [01:33:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love so much about what you just said, because obviously the collaborative spirit is there, but also the supportiveness of that, the idea that it's just like, okay, now go hit your home run. And in addition to, like. Yeah. That you're collaborating at first. [01:34:14] Speaker C: Right. [01:34:14] Speaker A: And then it's just sort of like, all right, now I can't wait to see what you do. I have to ask you real quick, Derek, and then I want to hear your thoughts, Ben, but I have to ask you real quick, because in our very first conversation, we were talking about the classic series. Like, you identified yourself as a big fan of the classic series and everything. So seeing Janice, seeing Beth and having that scene where we get that confirmation that Beth has always known and known, you know, she. [01:34:41] Speaker B: Made it, made it, made perfect sense. And again, and it's such a nice, just a compliment, again, of the strength of the original series and the spirit of it. Right? Again, we don't have Dean Stockwell, but we do have Al's family being a part of this. And then we were able to establish them early on and again and then really integrate them in such a way of Beth being involved with magic and having this new relationship with magic. And so it was just sort of the idea of bringing it all home. And then also the cherry on top is like bringing back Ziggy, the actual handling. That's my phone case. [01:35:35] Speaker A: And that music. [01:35:38] Speaker B: And the music, again, you're talking about, if there's a love letter and if there's really sort of like a way to say this is quantum leap through and through, I think that's really sort of like a nice moment right there and stuff like you're saying of all the hard work that everybody has brought together and including from the original series, and again, of just really respecting the fans that also have been on that journey in such a way that we hear you again, wouldn't be possible without your love and support for this. And I think that's a thing. And again, to the shout out to Deborah again, for carrying that torch, making sure that torch is passed along in such a way and being a part of it. So I think, if anything, it's just like you said, as a fan of the original, being able to see that and be a part of that, it is sometimes that pinch me moment of like, oh, yeah, I'm actually a part of this tapestry. [01:36:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Nice. Ben? Yeah. What are your thoughts on against time and kind of just bringing it all home at the end of the season? [01:36:51] Speaker C: I mean, echoing all that and all the little Easter eggs and the opportunities to sort of tie it into reminding the audiences that we are a sequel, not a reboot, I think was great. But selfishly, we are the ones that got to push this rock up the hill. We are the ones that made the reappearance of Janice and Beth worth it for the finale. Kind of to my point earlier about earning it, and I think this show worked really hard to earn the audience's respect and acknowledge that we're standing on the shoulders of giants and taking it in a new direction. To be able to tell a story that once again changes the paradigm of what quantum leap is with our ending, is incredibly gratifying. And knowing that we put the work into making that ending possible, making it matter, hopefully making it emotional for those who will see it as such, also. [01:38:06] Speaker B: Making it such a fun surprise, right. [01:38:11] Speaker C: To be entertained by all of it. Like, we hope we have entertained everyone in what we've done and we've entertained ourselves. We are very satisfied, I think, with what we've done. We feel really good about it and we hope audiences will, too. But we want everyone to have fun and have a good time and recognize that quantum leap is sort of this bright, shining star in the television firmament that, for the past two seasons has gotten to shine again and shine in brighter and different ways, that, let's keep it shining. [01:38:43] Speaker A: There's nothing else like it on tv. I used to hedge my bets with that. I said this earlier when I was talking to Dean and Drew, and I used to say, oh, there's nothing else like it on network tv. Right? Because that's an easy thing to say, and it's pretty true, but I think it's gone so far beyond that. There's just literally nothing on the landscape of television anywhere like this show. And I feel like it is incredibly necessary, and it's so beautiful to see the ways that it know, grown and changed and the moments that you all have earned, as you said, because they have definitely been earned. Do y'all have some stories in mind that you want to tell with Ben and Addison leaping around as a know? I think that obviously, being able to be entertained by it all and. And be moved by it all and. And see the way that these stories of loss and grief and. And sacrifice and fate while also finding the hope in all of that have been incredibly meaningful for a lot of people. And I think that for those of us in this community who were close to Matt Dale, the way that the story has played out over these past five episodes has obviously hit very close to home, and in some incredible ways. I know that both of you obviously had the opportunity to speak with Matt. Can you talk a little bit about what Matt might have meant to this process and even to you and your interactions with him? Because it's been something. Obviously, it's been on my mind a lot over these past eight weeks or so. Ben, I'll go and start with you. [01:40:31] Speaker C: We don't take for granted what this show means to fans like Matt and yourself, who don't just sit and watch it for an hour on television, who decide to then go out into the world and sort of spread the gospel of quantum leap in ways that are meaningful and relevant to you and your life and because you've been affected by it, because you've been moved by it, because he was moved by it. It's so rare to find people like that, that respond to what others call content, to know that it's not just content. These are myths and legends and stories and adventures, and they're things that make your world and your life a little bit better for a little while over the course of a day, and in the best instances, incite you to want to do the same yourself. And I think that's something know Matt did with the Quantum Leap podcast that you do with yours is in talking about it and showing your love and your passion for it, you're putting something good out. May. You may not be Ben song right or Sam Beckett wrong, but you are definitely. And he definitely gave other people something to latch onto that will maybe make their lives a little bit brighter, like it made his brighter. I'm sad even though we only got to speak to him that one time, it was a great conversation. And I'm really sad that he didn't get to sort of see the ending of this season. If I had a wish for him, it would have been that. And then for his family, obviously, that he's still here with them. That's the real sadness of it all. And I wish someone like Ben Song or Sam Beckett could go back in time and undo this. Sadly, that's not possible. But men's gratitude for him and everything he ever did for Quantum Leap. [01:42:32] Speaker A: Yeah, Derek, no. [01:42:35] Speaker B: Everything that Ben said know far more eloquent than what I say. I will just add for both Ben myself. It's like, yeah, we're lucky enough to do this, but we start out as fans and I think maybe in another life or who knows? Maybe. I'm not saying it's like Ben's already got his own podcast going, so I. [01:43:01] Speaker A: Was going to get to. [01:43:06] Speaker B: So the thing about with Matt is just the unbridled enthusiasm and love for a show. Love for. Love for everything that's reflected. Look at your back wall there. It's like all the movies that you have and tv shows and finding people that genuinely are passionate about storytelling performances and just really, just like fun shows like Quantum Leap. It's just always such a fun part of the experience of being able to talk to somebody like that. Right? Matt had that unbound enthusiasm, which was just always so nice to sit down and talk just like yourself. And it stings so much more when it's so unexpectedly you lose someone. Not to say that it's ever a bed of roses when someone passes away, but when it's unexpected, like the last thing in Austin, you hit that news and that sort of that moment of, that gut punch of like, oh, and your heart goes out to the family. And again, the friends that knew him, that really spent time with. So as Ben was saying, it's like, wow, we might have had just that momentary, that moment of interaction with him, grateful and appreciative of that. And it's like, wish you could have more. But it's also just reflective again of like, you just never know if you're going to have another moment like that. So appreciate the moments that you do have. So thank you, Sam, for always inviting us and letting us be a part of this in the same way that Matt also extended that and anyone else, for that matter. And we don't take that for granted. I think that's the thing. And I think Matt also was a person that recognized that anytime that he had anybody on to know, if anything, for, again, it's just like, yeah, I just appreciate the moment that I got to spend with him and the time and wish could have had more. The only thing that you can do is just like an honor, honor of his memory of just keep sharing these stories and keep being able to interact with other people and hopefully be able to spread that enthusiasm, that love in that. [01:45:25] Speaker A: No, I completely agree. He certainly touched my life, and I'm so grateful. I got to give a shout out to Georgina Riley, actually, because Georgina and I were supposed to have an interview the day after I found out that Matt had passed. The day after Matt had passed. And I remember emailing her and saying, hey, I don't know if we should do this. I don't know. And she encouraged me to do it and was like, no, this is what we should do. What better way to honor Matt than to do something that he would have loved doing? And I'm grateful for that. And as I was talking to her, I just realized how much of an inspiration Matt was and this thing that I kind of started doing, and I think I'd actually done it with Eliza when she was on the show the second time beforehand, but it's taken on new meaning for me, and I've loved the responses that I get. So, so much. So I have to ask you, Derek, I'll start with you. What inspires you. [01:46:25] Speaker B: These days? Not much. No, I'm just kidding. [01:46:31] Speaker A: Well, you definitely get the award for funniest answer so far. [01:46:37] Speaker B: Have you seen what's going on in the world? Honestly, what inspires me is that I'm able to wake up and do this for a living. I think that's inspiration because, and again, it's like moments like this of being able to talk to people that get to share these moments and really appreciate what we do with Ben and I do, it's like every day I always tell my friends, no matter how much shit that gets shoveled our way, all the trials and tribulations, at the end of the day, I still am just in awe, and I get inspired that I get to do this for a living. I get to be able to tell stories and just be able to live in these worlds in a way that normally, I don't know, if it was another life, I'd still probably be living in these worlds, but only in my head and not being able to do this. So I don't know. So I think if there's any inspiration is just being able to know that every day I'm able to get up and do that. Even on the days that I don't want to do that, I'm like. Like I said, I call it my procrastinating days. And I think that is the inspiration of just. I think what you're saying about being involved in this show, and we're being able to work with all the people that I get to work with and actually become friends and have great colleagues and relationships, I think that, again, that's inspiring, because then it's just like, okay, I know that I'm on the right path of what I've always wanted to do. Hopefully. Looks like he's frozen. So it's like, Ben inspires me, except, all right, he partially inspires me. He can't handle the full inspiration. He can't do that. [01:48:40] Speaker A: He's just not equipped emotionally to handle. [01:48:42] Speaker B: Right. He's not equipped emotionally. For my JJK fans, it's, like, my domain. Expansion of inspiration. It's like he can't handle that. [01:48:54] Speaker A: Ben, what inspires you? [01:48:56] Speaker C: Well, I guess Derek inspires me. [01:49:00] Speaker B: See, now I know he's lying. I know he's. [01:49:07] Speaker C: Well, listen, there's a lot of people that inspire me, and Derek is definitely counted among them. I have my family that inspires me. I have my wife, my kids. They're the thing that gets me up every day and doing what I do and wanting to do it and be better at it and be the best I can possibly be. And I know that that is a mountain that I will climb until the day I die, because there is no peak for it. There is only the striving to be better in all things, to be a better person, to be a better writer, to be a better friend, to be a better whatever I can be in this world before I'm out of it. To do that, there are people I look up to, and there are whose achievements I aspire to reach. There are people who, just, by the goodness of their heart, make me go. I really wish I had that in me, and I need to try and find it. For me, inspiration comes from this desire and this drive to want to be better. [01:50:19] Speaker A: I love that. I thank you both so much for answering that question. Now, before we get out of here, I do have one last question, because I know that you all have a lot on your plate, but I'm going to start with you, Ben. You've started a podcast, and you didn't let me. No. What are we talking about? Seriously? Yeah. [01:50:41] Speaker B: He didn't let me know, man. Sam, you're not the only one. He didn't let me know. [01:50:49] Speaker A: Tell us about your podcast. [01:50:50] Speaker C: What are we talking about? We don't know until you know something. Myself, my friend Paul, who's another writer producer, and our friend Mitch, who's a tv executive, we're just friends in real life. And we hang out, and one night we were hanging out and talking and just over drinks and everything. And invariably, some topic would come up where two out of the three of us would be knowing what we're talking about and therapist, what are we talking about? And so it just kind of became this, like, we realize this recurring theme in our socialization that we have these moments. So we decided, know, Paul had the podcasting equipment. We had some free time. We said, let's do it. Let's sit together and let's put written little topics on slips of paper. We fold them up, we put them in this popcorn bowl. Someone pulled it out. And that becomes the topic of conversation for the week. And so our third episode just went live. Today we are on Apple Podcasts. We're on Spotify, audible, iTunes, iHeartradio. We're all over the. So please listen in, subscribe, review, follow us on socials. We're on Twitter, Instagram, blue sky threads. [01:52:04] Speaker B: We're everywhere. [01:52:05] Speaker C: Want to know what we're talking about. [01:52:07] Speaker A: I love. That's. That's fantastic. I have been so busy lately that I haven't had a chance to listen, but I have it queued up. Luckily, I have a couple of long drives tomorrow, so I might get to listen to episode one for the first time. [01:52:23] Speaker C: We are not professionals. [01:52:25] Speaker A: Have you seen my set up? [01:52:27] Speaker C: No, but we're not video. We're just audio. So all you have is to listen to us. There's nothing to look at. It's like. [01:52:34] Speaker A: Well, I mean, depending on who's watching, they might be grateful for that. I don't know. You never can't tell. At least with me, I don't. Um. No, that's fantastic. I'm glad and all. That's very sweet, actually. Derek, what about you? What else have you got going on? [01:52:52] Speaker B: This is it. [01:52:53] Speaker A: This is it. [01:52:55] Speaker B: I just jump on people's podcasts, bitch and complain, watch tv, and eat. I got to eat. [01:53:04] Speaker A: Well, I mean, look, I think everyone should follow you on Instagram because I think that you post some hilarious stuff sometimes and some stuff that I can deeply identify with on occasion as well. So at least there's like, if nothing else. [01:53:20] Speaker B: No, most part, it's like, while we await to see if we get a third season or not, Ben and I are just busy working on our other projects and stuff. We got other stuff coming up. Got a comic book coming out later on this. Know, we keep slimming. It's like dory. We got to keep slimming. Absolutely. We're always just working on stuff. Like, right now, as soon as we jump off, I'll be diving right back into something else that we're working on, on a feature stuff. Like, we got two feature ideas that we're working, kicking about. And then the other part of my time is just, like I said, either parked in front of the tv or maybe I'll just go out every now and then, but mostly to eat. That's the excitement in my life right now. I got nothing else to share at this point in time. [01:54:11] Speaker A: Well, no, you know what? I'm glad you shared everything that you did, especially the comic book. I'm a comic book guy, so I'm looking forward to that. And I think that one of the great joys that takeaways from this show for me has not only been getting to meet and interact with people like yourselves, but also it's turned me into fans of more people. And no matter what you're doing, I want to tune in. I want to see what's going on, and I really appreciate that because in that effort to spread a little joy, right. And to spread a little kindness and to share a little something with other people, when you find people that you can kind of connect with on that level alone and just say, like, I want to follow their work, it's pretty cool. And that's one of the things that the show has definitely done. So I'm grateful for the pair of you, not just for coming on the show and talking with me. I always have a blast when you do that. It's always so much fun. But just for your work and specifically, as the world burns, I just think it's fantastic. I really genuinely do, and I'm just thrilled for people to see it. I can't wait to hear what other people are thinking about it as well. To that, if you're watching this if you're listening, leave a comment, join the conversation, let us know what you're thinking about it, because I thought it was great, and I can't wait to do this again at some point in the future. Whatever we're talking about. [01:55:31] Speaker B: Yeah, sounds good. [01:55:33] Speaker A: Derek, thank you so very much. Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. Ben. Thank you very much. [01:55:39] Speaker C: Thank you, Sam. [01:55:40] Speaker A: Appreciate it. Yeah. Right. Well, in the spirit of those deadlines. Hey, thank you so much, fellow travelers, for tuning in. Take care of yourselves. Take care of one. Stay safe out there, and remember to always, always leap responsibly. Bye.

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